Domino

[gazza]

Im about to (tomorrow) start cutting tennons and mortices for 41 cabinet doors.
Tennons on the table saw.
Mortices on the multico PM12.
Very time consuming but these are the only two ways i have at the minuite.
I could probably justify the purchase of a Festool Domino based on time saved ect.
But would it be a good enough joint for cabinet doors. the frame dimensions are 65mm x 22mm.
Quick(sensible) responses appreciated.
Cheers,
Gazza.

[nickw]

Slope, grease --> Yes. So long as your ends and sides are square, else you'll finish up, as ever, with everything in wind.

[gazza]

Cheers, Nick
im thinking one 8 x 50 domino per joint ?
10mm are twice the price Edit there not i misread the quantity

[jfc]

Festool took a dowel to a bigger dowel and tried to pass it off as a mortice and tenon . Jesus or Jacob ;D Invented the mortice and tenon , why change it to get called back when it fails .

[gazza]

Have to be honest Jason,
I tend to agree.
Im just thinking of the time as im under pressure, but then an extra day or two spent now and i wont have to worry about the joints ever ever again ;D
All the extra bits and the price of the dominos make it expensive
Cheers,
Gazza.

[dom]

Sorry I'm late with this, but yes you could, Great machine to use, but remember that when you've spent your money on the tool, the box of Dominos is another £150.00 odd.
Although you can buy them by size, but you really need the box.
If you do buy it, and you are using hardwood, it's best to clamp the timber down , as with the larger dominos the cutter can jump.
You would be better of using the dust extractor too, if you don't the machine can fill up with cuttings.

[gazza]

Better late than never Dom,
I've not bought one yet.
Check your PM.
Cheers,
Gazza.

[paulchapman]

jfc said:

why change it to get called back when it fails .

Why should it fail, Jason I had a go of Dom's Domino and thought it was great. It's very accurate (and fast) and provided that the sizes it does are appropriate for the work being done, I can't see why it should be inferior to a conventional mortice and tenon (unless you want to do a wedged tenon).

Cheers

Paul

[jfc]

It's got more chance of failing than a mortice and tenon because it is relying on the glue to hold the joint together , i assumed the tenons where going through and wedged but even if they are stop tenons the will be pinned , wont they

[gazza]

Yes, the tennons were to be through and wedged.
I have used loose tennons cut with a router before on a few tables and big mirror frames. Elm being one of the timbers which has a tendancy to move quite a bit. No problems whatso ever
it is the speed that interests me with the domino. I think i would have enough faith in modern glues to hold the joint.The joints dry fitted are very hard to pull apart due to the accuracy of the machine. the surface of the domino is designed for grip.
There have been many cabinet doors made over the years with dowels alone. the domino is definately better than dowels surely.
Even biscuits have been used on frames, although i dont think i would trust biscuits at all to hold a door frame, albeit a smallish one.
to cut all the tennons and through mortices i will be looking at the best part of 2 days.164 of each.
With the domino i am looking at a couple of hours
Big Big difference in labour costs.
decisions, decisions
Cheers,
Gazza.

[jfc]

Well if your happy to rely on the glue then go for it . When you mentioned tenons i assumed you thought the alternatives where going to be just as good . If i'm not doing a tenon then i'm happy to rely on a scribe joint but its not as good as a tenon .

[paulchapman]

Having tried Dom's I would rate it at about the same speed as using a biscuit jointer and very accurate. As a hobby woodworker I couldn't justify the cost of one but I reckon that in a commercial shop, it would soon pay for itself in time saved.

Cheers

Paul

[gazza]

No doubt about it tennons are the strongest.
What are you relying on with the scribe joint then, apart from the glue ?

[Scrit]

gazza said:

It is the speed that interests me with the domino. I think I would have enough faith in modern glues to hold the joint.The joints dry fitted are very hard to pull apart due to the accuracy of the machine. the surface of the Domino is designed for grip.

Regardless of modern glues, grippy surface or whatever the use of loose tenons will always be suspect in certain situations, especially exterior joinery because the grain orientation within any mortise and tenon joint is less than optimal for good glueing. That's why readitional work is wedged, pinned or otherwise mechanically restrained - belt and braces so to speak. the fact that the standard Domino "biscuits" are made from beech confirms my suspicions about the use of the Domino for exterior work

For internal cabinet doors the Domino may well be the solution, providing all you want is a plain shaker-style door, or you can live with applied beadings, but there are others. Yes, it's fast, but so are the Alternax and Maka style mortisers and so is a Rye or Bacchi round-ended mortiser (in fact all those static machines run rings around the Domino in terms of durability and speed) - even JFCs little Ryobi chain mortiser is no slouch....... And who says loose tenons have to be Domino-shaped?

gazza said:

To cut all the tennons and through mortices I will be looking at the best part of 2 days. 164 of each.
With the Domino I am looking at a couple of hours
Big Big difference in labour costs.

In that case you need to buy more cast iron kit.......... like a decent spindle moulder, sliding carraige and tooling which should cut your 164 tenons in about an hour (if you ganged them) and which furthermore will handle scribed joints - something the Domino cannot do. To my mind that's a major limitation of any non-spindle/tenoner solution.

Another thought is this - if you believe that modern glues will do the job why do you need a Domino at all? Surely a "cope and stick" cutter set for the router used with a grooved-in panel and with the backs of the joints pinned using 23g pins will be almost as durable, but at far lower cost? I've made kitchen doors that way and the 23g pins are almost invisible, although personally I wouldn't call it fine woodworking

I'm playing devil's advocate here, to an extent, but given the high price of a Domino and the relkatively greater useability of a spindle moulder I know which I would say were the better purchase. ;D

Scrit

[jfc]

What style are the doors Gazza ? Only asking because the fraud cabinet door making kit is very fast .

[jfc]

Or the Omas one for the spindle moulder .

www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20404&name=omas&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

Thats what i am saying , if i am going to rely on the glue then i use a scribe joint .

[gazza]

Simple shaker style doors, square edged frame.
I have a couple of rail and stile sets but the customer dosent like the rounded edges

Scrit, you have hit the nail on the head i need a spindle moulder and the money (not) spent on the domino could go a long way towards this.
Wealden do a door set which is basically a big tongue and groove set.
Im wondering whether this would be the answer.
Would a 12mm joint be good enough ?

[gazza]

Just looked at your link Jason 12mm joint on that one.
The wealden cutter may well do, and im perhaps on the way to running down the garden screaming like a girl ;D ;D(spindle moulder)

[jfc]

No but this could

cgi.ebay.co.uk/spindle-moulder_W0QQitemZ140215827853QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140215827853

[gazza]

Hmm, tempting but i would need it picked up and shipped across the water.
then id probably want a bigger one ;D ;D

[jfc]

Spindle moulder is the way to go i think but if the domino earns you enough money on the doors then you will probably be able to pick one up anyway . If you can look for one with a sliding table but axminster sell a sliding table if you cant . Once you get a spindle youll wonder how you managed without one .

[Scrit]

I'd second what Jason says about spindle moulders.

As far as the 12mm T&G cutter set, it's probably enough for most domestic use. There are a lot of kitchen door makers out there using sets like that T&G set and they do work, however those guys are really only thinking in terms of a 5 to 10 year lifespan, and if you look closely at a lot of them they are using 23g pins at the rear of the joints to ensure that the rails and stiles don't creep (3 pins per joint through the edge of the stile into the "coped" tongue at the end of the rail). Part of this problem can, of course, be engineered-out by changing to better glue such as urea formaldehyde instead of PVA/aliphatic resin (which always creep in the end). The downside of this is that it requires a small compressor (currently £39.99 on offer at our local B&Q) and a 23g pinner (for that you're looking at £120 to £160 +VAT) - but 23g pinners are another of these wonderful timesavers, especially if you do any amount of beaded work......

On the durability front I know from experience that the 23g pinner does add a disproportionate amount of extra strength to the joint. recently I did some work with a local kitchen company who'd started to make their own hardwood doors - they were making pippy oak doors and attempting to glue "cope and stick" pattern doors together without any pinning. The inevitable result was that some of the door "boomeranged", the joints moved in a warm kitchen (aren't Agas wonderful) and the stiles split away from the rails. It took some persuading to get them to invest £160 in a Bosch 23g pinner (that's the one sold by Wurth), but they did, the doors wer reglued, cramped and pinned and they haven't come back since.

Scrit

[gazza]

Got a compressor but only an 18g nailer would probably split the wood.
Seems that machine is around £500 new (spindle moulder)
I think its a basic model, but alot better than the one i dont have !!
Will perhaps look into it tomorrow.

Just for the record,
The doors are for a look only. As soon as the house is finished he wants to sell it. He wants to be able to say all the doors are handmade. there is reclaimed timber everywhere.
as for the long term,it doesnt really come into it.

[Scrit]

gazza said:

Got a compressor but only an 18g nailer would probably split the wood.

It won't, believe me, but you will need to punch under with a nail set and fill. It all depends on what the timber/finish are. Even filling can be disguised beneath a clear finish if the material is something with "character" like recycled pine or pippy oak (lt. oak filler then use a pigment spotting pen to make things look like natural defects - just don't try that with maple....... ;D). On the other hand with stuiff like dark (Jacobean) oak you can almost do what you want and the stain will hide it!

gazza said:

Just for the record, the doors are for a look only. As soon as the house is finished he wants to sell it. He wants to be able to say all the doors are handmade. There is reclaimed timber everywhere. As for the long term,it doesnt really come into it.

Maybe not now, but if you cut too many corners as sure as eggs it will come back and bite you in the arris at some point in the future (when a joint fails) and you'll risk getting a repoutation for being a shoddy cheap-skate. For that reason I'm always wary about cutting too many corners

Scrit