Panel/Wall Saw

[sainty]

Ok, i'm looking for your best advice.

My current contract involves ripping and sizing sheets of MDF. I get through about 18 sheets of 18mm and 24 sheets of 9mm mdf in about a week. I rip about 6 of the 18mm sheets into 41/42/60/82mm strips the rest become panels upto 1800*1200mm. I also use the occasional 10*4 18mm sheet too.

I've asked here before about table saw technique and I think that I've taken my TS2500 to its usable limits. Even with all the outfeed/infeed tables and my improving techniques I think its always going to be a bit awkward with my set up. The saw is a bit lightweight and the fence is suspect to move when it gets the odd knock .

I made some enquiries about a Striebig wall saw but at £10k as a starting point its all a bit rich. I like the idea of a wall saw but i don't like the ones that they have at Axminster where you have to move the timber past the saw.

The other alternatives are a standard panel saw but I don't know how much of an improvement it would be over my current setup.

I'm always happy to buy from ebay/second hand if the value is there. So what would you do? Cheaper wall saw? Standard panel saw? New or second hand.

I don't want a saw just to cut MDF if its going to get vast amounts floorspace in the workshop. It would need to replace the TS2500 and be able to cope with your standard ripping and crosscutting of solid timber too. If I go the wall saw route I would keep the TS2500

Oh, and my budget. £2/3k maybe. I'd prefer to pay less if possible. I'm probably more interested in value and residual prices.


rgds

Sainty

[jfc]

PM sent regarding a saw i know is for sale .

[wizer]

you could build one:

www.shopnotes.com/issues/088/videos/the-ultimate-shop-built-panel-saw/

I have the plans

[sainty]

Wizer, wizer, wizer...why did you have to show me that? huh? My mind is now racing at the thought of building one. Don't you know how busy I am? Its all so frustrating......

I'm becoming a bit obsessive about accuracy and repeatability....could it be made accurate I wonder??

rgds

Sainty

[jfc]

I dont think you need to go as far as the shop notes as im sure a guide rail of any kind will do even a home made one . My thinking is you make a timber frame spot on and then attach a board to that with say 2 x 1 spacers so your not cutting into the board all the time . The board and spacers can be changed when worn out but the frame work at the back can stay . The only thing i have not got around is how to move the guide rail up and down I dont think the vertical cut is needed .

[9fingers]

Stuart, Just to tempt you further, full Shopnotes details here

homepage.ntlworld.com/bob.minchin/W-UK%20Folder/shopnotes88.pdf

Good Luck

Bob

[wizer]

If I had your sort of space Stuart, I'd build it. You might aswell go the whole hog and build it to the shopnotes plans, if you have time.

[jfc]

Theres no need to go as far as the shop notes , they are major over kill ! Then again they have worked out how to do it and i aint

[sainty]

Ok a quick bit of browsing and i have come up with these options

Hammer Perform B3 saw/spindle

Felder K700s

Theres also a Hammer K3 Winner available which would be less money for less machine. I'm not sure of the exact specs of that at the moment

I quite like the idea of the spindle/saw combi but are they a bit of a pain to use? Its single phase and rips 2.4 sheets so i will still have to accommodate the 3.0 sheets elsewhere

The Felder will do everything that I want to throw at it but more money.

I'll keep searching and try and find out some more info i think....more to follow

#
rgds

Sainty

[jfc]

Heres where i am with the wall saw idea . The guide rail is balanced with sash wieghts and held in place each end in a guide , a bit like a sash window . The guides have mm marked all the way up them so you can referance each end of the saw guide rail and then fix it in place with ..... well i am on speed clamps right now ;D but i am working on that one .
You can then set stops so you just pull the saw guide rail down for the next board .

[sainty]

Oh i see jfc, its like a festool guiderail system, but on it's side and you have to clamp the guide rail rather than let gravity do it for you, and you get two chances to measure incorrectly, and theres 2.4m+ of guide rail unsupported, and it requires a footprint a bit bigger than a sheet of MDF....

Hows it working out for you? Are you finding it repeatable/accurate?

[jfc]

Thats it ;D exept i am moving away from a rail system and going back to a Jacob style saw board that will be 3.0m long . The footprint is against the wall so less space needed .

[jfc]

Well four hours later and i've built it , and it works ;D I knew it would !!! Just need to work out how to support the rail now ........ Pics to follow .

[Dave S]

When I first read this thread I was going to ask if you had considered one of the saw/guide systems. Now I see from your workshop thread that you already have the Festool...

Could you not just build a bigger version of the MFT for the purpose? Possibly something that hinges down from the wall and can be stowed away after use? (Perhaps not so useful if you cut the MDF in several batches) I may be missing something of course - I'm not in the trade and I'm sure I haven't used as much as 42 sheets MDF in total, let alone in a week! ;D

I use one of the other guide rail systems, and on the user forum there are several in the trade who say they use the rail exclusively for cutting plywood in the sort of quantities you are talking about. Perhaps a word with Colin Cotteral would help as he uses the same system as me.

Dave

[sainty]

Hi dave, thanks for your thoughts. I do use the guide rail and saw for breaking down some of the sheets. However the MFT seems to fall in between size wise on the cuts I make (ie a lot of <100mm rips or >800mm panels) at the moment. I hadn't considered the idea of making a larger version, having thought about it, it probably isn't robust enough when i start throwing 18mm sheets about!! I really like the mft for anything out of the ordinary, or on site but in terms of repeatability in the workshop I'm looking for something a bit more stable.

I assume that you are using the Eureka system? Do you have a link for the user forum, its always interesting to see wht else is out there.

Cheers

Sainty

[Dave S]

sainty said:

I assume that you are using the Eureka system? Do you have a link for the user forum, its always interesting to see wht else is out there.

You throw 18mm sheets about?? ;D
Yes, I do use the Eureka system. I recently made some wardrobe doors from mdf. I ripped nearly two full sheets of 22mm into 100mm pieces and 2 sheets of 12mm into panels. Did it on my own in one half of a double garage. It certainly gives me the repeatability I need, but of course your needs are rather different to mine.

The forum is hosted at Sawmill Creek - scroll down to the manufacturers section. In the forum the third thread is a sticky which has links to pictures of members' setups. I think you need to sign up in order to see the pics, though. You'll see mention of power benches and bridge systems - that's what I have and I think it would be broadly comparable to the MFT (not that I've seen one in the flesh). The other approach (which Colincott uses) is the cabinetmaker system whereby the rail is taken to the sheet rather than the sheet to the rail.

Look out for benches made by a chap called Burt Waddell. He's in the trade, making lots of kitchens etc from plywood (he's in the US).

I'm afraid I don't have any pics of my own and my wife is away with the camera at the moment

cheers
Dave

[wizer]

I'm just considering whether to get rid of the TS and go for a full EZ system. Everytime I think I've made my mind up, I look at a TS and think that I need one. A dilema for sure.

[Keith]

Sainty I have exactly the same problem as you only my workshop is half the size of yours!

I've got a Scheppach TS2500, it's a good machine but limited when cutting sheets, especially as I have a shorter guiderail than you and I've been thinking of changing it. I also don't have a spindle, just haven't had the room, so have been thinking of getting a Hammer/ Felder saw spindle.

I went down to Felders at Milton Keynes last week to have a look. The hammer machines are pretty good but IMHO more geared toward top end DIY. The rip fence is particularly poor and I couldn't see a way of easily replacing it at it sits on what looks like an ally tube. The stand alone Hammer spindle looks promising though as the sliding carriage is integrated into the top so takes a lot less space.

The Felder 500 series saw spindle looks more promising, but at over £5K !!

[Dave S]

wizer said:

I'm just considering whether to get rid of the TS and go for a full EZ system. Everytime I think I've made my mind up, I look at a TS and think that I need one. A dilema for sure.

Wouldn't it be better to look at the work you do (and want to do) and think about whether you need one.

Dave

[Scrit]

Personally I feel that if you're doing volume then a proper panel saw can't be beat - and as you're already effectively running one you shouldn't need much more space. I'd go secondhand, though, as new ones cost a mint (even s/h Felders are expensive). An industrial machine would be a huge step upwards from your Scheppach - bigger carraige, better bearings, more power, ability to do rips on the carraige (i.e. less effort), Abilirt to multi-cut, more accurate rip fence, etc. If you don't need a tilting blade and you've got 3-phase then an 8ft machine can be had for from £1000 to £2000 in useable condition. Add £500 to £1000 if you need a tilter, and budget £2500 to £3500 for a really good one. Wall saws are a much rarer find secondhand and often don't have scoring facility. look for Holz-Her, Harwi, etc as they are more reasonable than Striebig (which are the Altendorf/Martin of the wall saw world with prices to match)

Scrit

[sainty]

Interesting Scrit. Why do you think that a panel saw is better than a wall saw? I've seen quite a few s/h Felders both Saws and combi machines around on the Internet, are they worth the premium?

Now I'm looking at combi's ...where will it end???

rgds



Sainty

[wizer]

daves said:

wizer said:

I'm just considering whether to get rid of the TS and go for a full EZ system. Everytime I think I've made my mind up, I look at a TS and think that I need one. A dilema for sure.

Wouldn't it be better to look at the work you do (and want to do) and think about whether you need one.

Dave

Yup, well I want to now start more hardwood furniture projects. To my mind, I need a TS. I guess what I was saying above is that the EZ system sounds good, but I just can't get my head around wether it suits my needs. There is a ton of info and videos on the EZ system, but I just can't relate it to my real world. Which probably means i'll stick with a TS.

[engineerone]

wizer, having seen all 3 types of rail system in use, they do have value and for cutting big panels are of course the dogs' danglies.

however for much hardwood work, you tend if not a pro, to use smallish sections and sizes. my biggest planks of oak and cherry have been no wider than 8 inches, and no longer than 6 feet.
in that case, then in general a small table saw is valuable, although i do use the dewalt 708 a lot too.

it also depends on the height width of the item you are making,
i try and stick with things smaller than 4 feet high, cause i can't lift much more

however since some of what i have planned is going to be frame and panel, then a rail will be valuable.

the biggest problem with any table saw is it needs a lot of space all around to be used efficiently, where as a rail system can be made to use only just over the size of a board plus walking room, and you could make the cutting table knock down to save space too.

if you are confident of your ability then you can always get the yard to split the boards down a little, but of course if you use veneered boards and want to utilise the grain better then you have to do it yourself.

i built a wheeled base for my dewalt 744 and it makes it easier to use, but even though it will cut 600 wide, it still takes up a lot of room stuck in the corner

but then my shop is quite small, and it makes using a rail quite difficult too.

paul

[Scrit]

sainty said:

Why do you think that a panel saw is better than a wall saw?

For a start they (panel saws) can do mitre cuts - to my knowledge there are only two or three wall saws out there which can do that. Secondly they (panel saws) will handle solid stock, such as waney edge boards, which can be a problem on wall saws. Thirdly they (panel saws) are often more accurate on thin rips - on a panel saw you make a squaring dust cut, set the rip fence in the short position then make repeated cuts using the crosscut fence as the register (not the rip fence). The rip fence is only used for the last few cuts. On a panel saw that is much more awkward as you have to remove the ripped strip from below the sheet (if registering from the base stops) or by measuring and moving the head down each time (if cutting downwards from the top - not accurate). If you only ever need to make square cuts and you're not doing loads of thin rips then panel saws are good, and they take-up much less floor space. But they suffer from much restricted functionality over a conventional panel saw. I've owned several panel saws and used more, my experience of wall saws is mainly from using Holz-Her panel saws (with scorers). Which is suitable depends on your own long term requirements. Either way if you are doing 40+ sheets of MDF a week a wall or panel saw will deliver time savings over either a table saw or a rail system

sainty said:

I've seen quite a few s/h Felders both Saws and combi machines around on the Internet, are they worth the premium?

Personally I don't think so. Yes, they are better than the Hamer, Rojek, Robland, etc but they are no better than many of the lighter SCMs and I've always felt that Felders aren't quite as robust as true industrial machines. Now watch whilst the Felder owners take a pop!

The rail systems are on about are all very well, but the question is what speed do you want to work at and how well will they last? An industrial wall saw or panel saw has a probable life of 20 to 30 years. How durable is a rail system.

Scrit

[nickw]

woodsmith said:

The rip fence is particularly poor and I couldn't see a way of easily replacing it at it sits on what looks like an ally tube.

It's only the 'Basic' model (IIRC) which has the aluminium section runner; on the higher spec models it is a solid steel bar with a decent casting holding the fence. My 'Comfort' half-combi has this system.

The only slight problem I have with it is that you really need to take the fence, and its casting, right off the machine when cross cutting wider, longer sections. If they had made the casting 5mm thinner underneath, or made the rail a little lower, then you would have been able to flip it over and park it at the side of the table. The problem doesn't show well here, but the bits of the casting above the rail stick up above the level of the table. I might yet get round to reducing the height myself one day, except that most of the time it's not a major problem.