Felder

[blacksheep]

I've always bought used stuff in the past and my workshop contains the usual assortment of old Wadkin-type gear picked up on ebay or from firms closing down. In other words, it's cost me next to nowt!

Business is chugging along quite nicely now though, and I'm starting to think about upgrading my main pieces of machinery over the next couple of years.

I'll be needing a panel saw, planer thicknesser, spindle moulder, and wide belt sander.

I've been drooling over the Felder website - but know nothing about their machines. Are they as nice as they look? Anyone here with any experience of them?

Apart from the price, what is the real difference between their different product ranges?

If I were to invest the kind of money we are looking at, it would have to be for the long term - 20 years or so. I don't want to make any mistakes!

Rgds
Phil

[davyowen]

Dom's the man to talk to as his workshop is like a felder showroom but I haven't seen him around for a while so I'll give you my opinion. Felder are a great company. Everyone I've spoken to has been extremely helpful. Every now and then they have a sale where most machines are reduced in price so it's worth requesting a catalogue online and then they'll phone you when there's something to offer.

I haven't used any of the Felder series because frankly I can't afford them and don't have the need for their top of the line stuff but I do have the Hammer A3-41 and I'm extremely impressed with it, but then again, for the price I'd expect it to be pretty good ;D

The difference between their product ranges are down to quality, expected usage and the extras available. Hammer being suitable for the smaller business and the Format4 range for the industrial users.

Give the guys a ring and ask them when they expect to be having a sale next, when I got the Hammer they knocked off £550.

[mooretoolsplease]

We were looking to buy a felder spindle, planer and seperate thicknesser. We went upto the show rom to have a good look round, but their knowledge left alot to be desired, partly from the industry, but mainly through their machines capabilities.
In the end we went to an independant machinery company, and had a huge range of machines to choose from

[engineerone]

why not check out the robland range too, they have a solid reputation and good service

paul

[Keith]

Felder have a special offer on their machines until Wednesday. Either money off or free aditional equipment. Then May 1st the price goes up. They are pretty worried about the price increases as the pound has slumped so much against the euro.

[woodworker]

Hi Blacksheep,

I have a workshop full of Felders (see my El Fresco workshop pic somewhere on the forum ;D). are they any good........ well yes they are very accurate machines, but so are others in this price range.
Felder make the best combi machines on the planet, their stand alone machines were OK, but the recent upgrades to the 700 series stand alone's make them very good. As to price Felder have become imho the masters of the price increase in four years they've had by my info 5 price increases and strangely the've all been 4%. Most other manufacturers have managed about 8%ish in total in that same time frame.

Anyway to the point, Felder make very nice machines, I,m currently using the 700 series which basically is the pro workshop machines.
The 900 and kappa machines are industrial production line etc machines. The 500 series was born out of the now discontinued Felder 700 310 full combi machine to bridge a gap between the the Felder brand and the Hammer range. I could go on an do a history lesson on Felder but ;D ;D.

Sadly quite a few of Felders sales staff left last year and the new staff are people with no or very little woodworking experience & imho very little sales experience either ( see above post from moretoolsplease) and although they go through some training programme in Austria it has to be very difficult to learn about what a customer needs and to pitch the sales spiel to match.

Felder are also on their 3rd service manager in under 12 months which doesn't help and that put them back to just 2 engineers to cover the UK, I understand another is on the way.

Felders customer service is in my honest opinion is crap.

So you can see this post is a double edged sword one side being blunt , the other sharp.

Out of several orders in recent times Felder have never managed to get one right yet.

So why buy Felder ?. because they make good machines that are tailor made to your needs, they come with more options than you can shake a stick at, not many manufacturers do that.

If I'd known then what I know now I would walk away.

If your making a living from woodworking IMHO look elsewhere.
If you've got the patience of a saint and don't rely on woodwork for a living then maybe.........

If anyone buys a Felder I genuinely hope everything goes according to plan and they have no problems with the machine so they avoid the legendary Felder experience.

Hope this helps

[Keith]

Apr 25, 2008 16:27:00 GMT woodworker said:

If anyone buys a Felder I genuinely hope everything goes according to plan and they have no problems with the machine so they avoid the legendary Felder experience.

Hope this helps

Not exactly comforting

Well I'll see what happens when I get mine. I've paid for the machine to be commissioned so that I can prove any problems are not down to my poor assembly. Then if it isn't right it will go straight back.

[woodworker]

Apr 25, 2008 16:46:48 GMT Keith said:

Apr 25, 2008 16:27:00 GMT woodworker said:

If anyone buys a Felder I genuinely hope everything goes according to plan and they have no problems with the machine so they avoid the legendary Felder experience.

Hope this helps

Not exactly comforting

Well I'll see what happens when I get mine. I've paid for the machine to be commissioned so that I can prove any problems are not down to my poor assembly. Then if it isn't right it will go straight back.

Keith, I sincerely hope everything works out OK for you.

I don't know if they told you this but, by paying for them to commission the machine you get the extended warranty 3 yrs on the machine and 6 years on the slider, if you don't have the commisioning you only get the standard warranty 1 year. So you've done the right thing.

Hope this helps

[Keith]

I saw I had the extended warranty, I didn't realise this was because I had paid for commissioning. Not bad when I got it half price ;D

Lets hope I'm still laughing when its delivered

[woodworker]

Apr 25, 2008 17:07:28 GMT Keith said:

I saw I had the extended warranty, I didn't realise this was because I had paid for commissioning. Not bad when I got it half price ;D

Lets hope I'm still laughing when its delivered

Keith
The pleasure of ownership will still be there long after the pain of the price has been forgotten ;D.
..

[thallow]

Apr 25, 2008 18:49:36 GMT woodworker said:

Keith
The pleasure of ownership will still be there long after the pain of the price has been forgotten ;D.
..

Great line - might try that one on the Mrs next time i buy a few 'bits' for me shed ;D

[modernist]

The machines are excellent from the point of view fundamental accuracy and repeatability and so they should be at that price. The accessories are good and comprehensive and quite good value on occasions but sometimes poorly thought out on the Hammer range. Some of them seem almost deliberately badly designed to create the difference to the main ranges. e.g. bridge guards, fences and moulder fences on a C3-41.

That makes Hammers good as you are paying for a sound machine and you can always improve fences etc later.

Flexibility of the company is appalling and typically Austrian so don't try to change your order after it has been placed with the factory. Service is currently crap to non existent. I rang up 3 times to order a power feed last month with no response so gave up. None of my spares or accessory orders have ever been processed without some error and I agree the knowledge of the sales staff is inadequate from the point of view of both woodwork, which is their own loss, to the details of the machines and accessories, which is inexcusable. The value of the Euro must certainly be a problem for them at the moment but they have always been expensive and that dictates high grade sales and service staff which are currently lacking.

Come on Norman get the buggers sorted out!

By that way what has happened to Dom?

Brian

[blacksheep]

Thanks guys - food for thought indeed.

Not having bought machinery new before, customer service has never been an issue. At this kind of investment however, it bloody would be!

Let's rethink a little. My priority is a decent panel saw for dimensioning 8x4 sheets of veneered MDF, as well as serving as my general purpose table saw.

What would anyone suggest as my best route in the 4-8k range?

Robland? S/H SCM? Even an old Altendorf?

I'm not bothered about flashing lights etc. Just a reliable, accurate workhorse that will see me out!

Phil

[Keith]

I don't have enough space for a full size panel saw and have spent ages looking at various machines trying to find something that suits.

In the end I have decided on a Scheppach Ixes Forsa 6, 2m sliding carriage, separately motored scoring blade, built like the proverbial. The next model up, the Forsa 8, will cut 8x4 sheets and is well worth a look IMHO if you want something new.

S/h iron would be a cheaper option though

[ivan]

Have you got your hands on the Ixes yet Keith? Did you look at SCM?

[Keith]

Apr 27, 2008 16:57:15 GMT ivan said:

Have you got your hands on the Ixes yet Keith? Did you look at SCM?

No and no

I've been to have a look at the Ixes and liked it, the only problem for me is that it has an 1150mm rip capacity (typically machines have 800mm as standard) and this eats into the space I have available, other than that it has everything I need. I am just in the process of ordering one from a local firm,once I get the dealer to be a bit more realistic on price!

The SCM machines start at about £6K, I think? But there are no dealers near me and I wouldn't buy a machine without looking at it.

[modernist]

Apr 27, 2008 5:22:39 GMT blacksheep said:

Let's rethink a little. My priority is a decent panel saw for dimensioning 8x4 sheets of veneered MDF, as well as serving as my general purpose table saw.

What would anyone suggest as my best route in the 4-8k range?

Robland? S/H SCM? Even an old Altendorf?

I'm not bothered about flashing lights etc. Just a reliable, accurate workhorse that will see me out!

Phil

As well as the Universal I also have a Hammer panel saw with a 3m table which will come in well under your budget. Having run it for a year my views are:-

• Basic spindle quality and adjustment excellent.
  (I don't require a scoring unit so I removed it)
  
  
• Start/stop button very inconvenient especially for full sheet work
  
  
• Sliding table and outrigger fine
  
  
• Crosscut Fences and stops OK but no fine adjustment
  
  
• Rip fence appalling (round bar type with PU fine adjustment wheel). This does not even work in the showroom. My suggestion would be the above machine with an upgrade to a better rip fence, possibly from the Felder range.
  
  

Still you have to consider bangs per buck and I am not sure of the current price.

Hope this helps - at least it is real hands on experience.

Brian

[woodworker]

Apr 27, 2008 5:22:39 GMT blacksheep said:

Thanks guys - food for thought indeed.

Not having bought machinery new before, customer service has never been an issue. At this kind of investment however, it bloody would be!

Let's rethink a little. My priority is a decent panel saw for dimensioning 8x4 sheets of veneered MDF, as well as serving as my general purpose table saw.

What would anyone suggest as my best route in the 4-8k range?

Robland? S/H SCM? Even an old Altendorf?

I'm not bothered about flashing lights etc. Just a reliable, accurate workhorse that will see me out!

Phil

Phil, your right customer service on Pro machines has to be first class as this level. I remember sometime back making an appointment to see Felder UK, when I got there I had a bit of a shock as I had to wait in a queue with other customers who had issues with them.

Try SCM, they have a showroom full of them (not too far from you) in Nottingham. Well worth a visit.

As to Altendorf there's been one or two on Ebay recently, but normally you just don't see many of them anywhere, people hang on to them forever and for good reason.




.

[beech1948]

I have used an all Felder workshop, at least for my main machines for 7 years now.

Felder is excellent for engineering, excellent for accuracy and mostly simple to work with. I have a remote on/off switch on my panel saw for instance.

Felder customer service and even showroom service has gone from excellent to crap in about the last two years. For the price the service is poor.

Ther only competitors with a full range of machines is Knapp. Just as expensive as Felder and if anything over engineered.

For saws I would also include Altendorf. ESpecially for much 8x4 sheet work.

SCM and many others are not in the same league at all being more mid-market, mid-accuracy machines where the flatness of the cast iron beds and fences is usually slightly off. You get what you pay for.

To me its a trade off of great engineering ( Felder) versus poor service. What I have found is that the guys in the Austrian factory are brilliant and approachable if you have a serious problem and then it gets solved very quickly by the UK team.

regards
Alan

[woodworker]

Alan,
It's such a shame about the customer service you mention, in my experience of 5 yrs ownership is the customer service has always been poor and your right the last 2 years it's got worse.

My own personal experience with Austria is the same as Felder UK ie crap. I wish it wasn't but .............

[mikeb]

Just out of curiosity, as a casual observer hobbyist (who will never get beyond simply dreaming of Felder saws...), just what sort of accuracy would one expect from a Felder or Altendorf panel saw??

And how does that compare to a "mid accuracy" SCM, Robland,etc saw??

And again compared to a more budget machine such as a Hammer or similar??

I've no experience of woodworking machinery, but have quite a bit of metal cutting machines where the key to serious accuracy is a good blade, heavy and rigid machinery, and a reliable automatic feed.

I assume that even with rolling carriages etc that the 8x4 sheets are not clamped to the carriage and I haven't seen any machines with an auto feed; as without an auto feed mechanism, then surely small differences are bound to occur...

Mike

[woodworker]

May 7, 2008 11:50:41 GMT mikeb said:

Just out of curiosity, as a casual observer hobbyist (who will never get beyond simply dreaming of Felder saws...),

Mike, there are more interesting things to dream about other than a Felder......... trust me ;D .

May 7, 2008 11:50:41 GMT mikeb said:

just what sort of accuracy would one expect from a Felder or Altendorf panel saw??

Felder used to claim an accuracy to a tenth of a mm, but more recently looking in the machine protocol spec that has changed to various tolerances according to the machine in question. Felder only set up a machine to within a laid down spec and no more these days, if you want more accuracy a tenth or less you have to tweek it yourself.
On my panel saw I can cut an 2400mm sheet with no noticable error at either end, but I had to tweek the setup myself.

May 7, 2008 11:50:41 GMT mikeb said:

And how does that compare to a "mid accuracy" SCM, Robland,etc saw??

SCM with their new Technomat range have moved on from mid accuracy. I have no experience with the other machines.

May 7, 2008 11:50:41 GMT mikeb said:

And again compared to a more budget machine such as a Hammer or similar??

Felder stopped guaranteeing a tenth of a mm for the Hammer range some time back, but again if you know what your doing and the adjustments points are available then..............

I've owned & used various machines over the years and most of the old style cast iron ones were at least as accurate as a Felder and others.

As to the Altendorf I'll leave that to Scrit ....Cue..... ;D . I have used one in the past and it was a peach of a machine.

[modernist]

I don't find any problem at all getting to within a tenth on the Hammer spindle on height or the thicknesser.

The saw spindle support is very good but let down by very poor fences which are impossible to adjust accurately.

Brian