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Post by engineerone on Jun 11, 2008 19:47:00 GMT
you are right scrit as usual. i think though the difference is that a site joiner is gonna lose more of his kit more often a cabinet maker  in which case i would suggest that the cabinet maker can afford to spend more ;D the thing is i guess it is the time/expenditure relationship. paul  |
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Post by modernist on Jun 11, 2008 22:03:11 GMT
I agree, you are right, and it is not too difficult to get fine results from a well tuned stanley or record. I'm not so sure about the example featured here as unsquare soles, frogs etc are an unnecessary problem. I had an indian bull nose with the same problem and exchanged it for a Veritas which is a gem of a plane.
E1 is right re site work. For mechanicing I have 3 sets of gear, home,work and boat in descending order of quality. I would not like to drop a snap on spanner down a chute in a quarry and salt water wrecks everything except 316 stainless.
It's similar with WW gear, site joinery is not the place to enjoy the pleasure on offer from LN or Clifton but that is to miss the point of what they are about. Also the nature of the work is different. Not many people are wrestling with wild grain cherry on site to a cabinet finish but your would be hard put to stop chatter and tear out on the best stanley or record on the same job. It is a mystery to mem why they did not put thicker irons in these from the outset. I have just "inherited" my fathers 1944 No 7 and the iron is even thinner than my 1970 No 4 - holds a good edge though.
Site work is about getting the job done. Savouring the delights of a LN is something else.
Brian
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Post by tusses on Jun 11, 2008 23:03:57 GMT
SOMEBODY HELP ME !!! tis addictive this hand tool stuff , int it ! I cant stop planing bits of wood ! just for no reason other that I can now  I am disappearing in a mountain of shavings !!!! it scares me that I might want to spend a lot of cash on a good plane now ! |
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Post by engineerone on Jun 11, 2008 23:28:20 GMT
it is certainly a nice feeling to find quite easy, something which has seemed unattainable. hand planing is such a skill, and it is addictive. now what you need to do is think about making something small that you can practice your new skill on, then decide about spending more money ;D a small table, or even a small box are great places to start, and finish because you can actually complete them in a really short time. welcome to the well oiled slope, glad to have helped making it slippery for you  paul |
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Post by tusses on Jun 12, 2008 0:04:31 GMT
I am going to have to make something - as all I can think about is the shavings I can make .... ooh - if I sharpen a bit more - I can make them even thinner ..... and so on and so forth .... |
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Post by tusses on Jun 12, 2008 0:17:12 GMT
I'm still not convince on the 'theory' of how they can make a perfectly flat surface/edge tho ! does not compute  |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Jun 12, 2008 6:37:18 GMT
I'm still not convince on the 'theory' of how they can make a perfectly flat surface/edge tho They can't. What they do is a series of scoops as mentioned before. Just like levelling the top of a tub of ice-cream with a scoop. You'd do it carefully in parallel lines, then take off the ridges between the hollows, then same again - approaching but never actually getting flat. But with woodwork you can move on to a smoother with less camber, or a scraper, or sand paper. If you look at old 'ordinary' hand made furniture and joinery, you can often see the planed hollow scoops across the face of wider boards and panels, if you get it in the right light etc. Or you can highlight them on new work by a sort of reverse brass rubbing - apply pencil to a small block and then rub that over the surface of your workpiece. cheers Jacob |
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Post by Alf on Jun 12, 2008 7:40:41 GMT
SOMEBODY HELP ME !!! tis addictive this hand tool stuff , int it ! I cant stop planing bits of wood ! just for no reason other that I can now I am disappearing in a mountain of shavings !!!! it scares me that I might want to spend a lot of cash on a good plane now ! Congratulations - of perhaps commiserations - you've just found The Slope. ;D |
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Post by engineerone on Jun 12, 2008 11:09:24 GMT
actually your comments about square are interesting since in fact in all circumstances, either wood or metal, if you machine/surface with a rotary tool, then you do not actually get a flat surface. by definition even if the cut is minimal, it will be a kind of rippled surface. if you are old enough to remember when oil additives were a bigger market in the uk than they are now, it was one of the selling points, indeed even castrol used to promote it, that in a cylinder block, or bearing, the machining had left a surface which was uneven. not visible by the eye, but it allowed oil to sort of hide in the dents. indeed if bearings and shafts were tight fits, then the oil would not get there, and that is why for instance when you fill you diesel car with petrol it strips the lubricant from the surfaces and can cause seizure. when you use your planer thicknesser, since it rotates, the surface will be scalloped, depending on the speed at which you feed the wood over the blades. as far as planing goes, there are perceived to be only two ways to shape the cutting edge of the blade( although paul chapman's comments about the lie nielson blade are worth checking) flat or curved. in the past, it was thought that the curved blade was only valuable for rough cutting, but work by david charlesworth has shown that a curve on the blade will make cutting a flatter surface easier. having tried one of david's planes at an exhibition, i can see his point. still haven't got that right yet, but am working towards it. what confused me was the idea that a curved blade could for instance work on the edges, and in fact it does, but you need to practice it. as jacob says you are cutting scallops across the width of the wood. and history suggests that with a flat blade across the width, you will get tram tracks. some disagree but it is easy to understand the possibility. whereas with a curved blade the tracks are less dramatic, and easier to remove. the thing is that when you are doing an edge joint, you are only trying to get the joints to fit each other. whereas across the surface of the wood, in fact the slight rippling enhances the pattern of the wood in a finished state. anyway enough of the trying to explain what seems inexplicable, what you have to do is get a piece of wood say about 41/2 wide, and just try hand planing it to thickness. scribble across the wood with a pencil and then plane away the lines, this will give you an idea of how things are going, and once you have got it without pencil lines across, then you can feel it and see how you can understand it. as before good luck, and enjoy the ride down the slope ;D paul |
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cadas
Full Member
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Post by cadas on Jun 12, 2008 18:45:32 GMT
For a good value high quality plane, wait until the next woodworking show, and go on the first day it opens in the morning to the Clifton stands and as for 'B' grade planes.
The usually have a few and they go for about 60% of retail and they have to point out the faults or you'd never fine them. Problem is they tend to sell out by lunchtime.
I can tell you this as I now have a full set ;D ;D
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dunbarhamlin
Full Member
Lutherie with Luddite Tendancies
Posts: 244
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Post by dunbarhamlin on Jun 12, 2008 20:25:25 GMT
;D I didn't think of that, Cadas. But can attest that very good discounts can be had at shows (Clico 4 and 5 nestled amongst their siblings on the shelves came this way (IIRC best part of 25% off))
Steve
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jmk89
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by jmk89 on Jun 16, 2008 6:19:07 GMT
There's a hell of a lot of BS waffled about the need to spend loads of dosh on the best plane going....... Take a look in any site jopiner's kit and you'll see just two or three planes; a block plane, a smoother or jack and possibly a bull nose. they may well not be the best planes (often Records or Stanleys), but they do have their blades properly sharpened and honed and the breakers set correctly. The need for high price polanes is often over stated when the real need is for a plane which is sharp and well set first Scrit I agree. A sharp blade held firmly at the right angle is more than 90% of the battle. Sometimes, I feel a bit about good planes like Jack Nicklaus was reported to say about lucky putts - the more I practice the luckier I get... The same here - the more you make sure that the fundamentals are right, the better the plane becomes. One of my favourites is the #4 Stanleythat I inherited from my dad. His work on it combined with mine makes it an excellent smoother, and the plane I tend to reach for before all others. The good thing about knowing what you cna get out of an average plane is that it enables you to put the claims for the more expensive planes into perspective. Drop a LN, LV or Clifton from the bench onto a concrete floor and you are just as likely to have to fettle the things from the beginning as the cheap but reliable old Record or Stanley. |
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dunbarhamlin
Full Member
Lutherie with Luddite Tendancies
Posts: 244
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Post by dunbarhamlin on Jun 24, 2008 2:01:28 GMT
The need for high price polanes is often over stated when the real need is for a plane which is sharp and well set first Scrit Certainly true - but in the absence of proper woodwork tuition at school, courses or a mentor, the easiest way to appreciate what a well set up plane should feel like is to try one of the better modern tools. Beyond that, it's (largley) a trade off between time and money. I support modern toolmakers for the same reason many (most?) would rather use a P/T (and because I don't have a golf or wife habit to support.) OTOH I got a reground Stanley #5 from Ray Iles last week, and though it doesn't have the heft of a modern version, it's a fab tool for a fraction of the cost. The good thing about knowing what you cna get out of an average plane is that it enables you to put the claims for the more expensive planes into perspective. Drop a LN, LV or Clifton from the bench onto a concrete floor and you are just as likely to have to fettle the things from the beginning as the cheap but reliable old Record or Stanley. Here I don't entirely agree. LV/LN are ductile iron - drop these from bench height and they'll dent (surprisingly easily) rather than crack. A Clico (anealed) bounces (I've seen vids of them being mightily abused with naught but a few scuffs to show for it.) OTOH Stanley/Record will not stand the same abuse without risking the integrity of the casting. Cheers Steve |
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Post by bugbear on Jul 8, 2008 9:33:16 GMT
Re your old one I would not bin it yet. The base/side only really matters for shooting and the mouth can be filed square and straight. the problem will probably be the blade quality where there is no point in buying a quality blade to put in such a body. As a matter of tactics, if you buy a good quality 2" wide blade, it doesn't have to stay in the present plane forever - if you bought a better "fettling" plane e.g. older Record or Stanley, you could simply transfer the quality blade over to it. BugBear |
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Post by engineerone on Jul 9, 2008 23:01:51 GMT
welcome to the new mad house nice to see we have finally corrupted you ;D paul |
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