melamine delaminating

[engineerone]

so a couple of weeks ago i looked at the melamine wardrobes i had converted to smaller storage in my workspace, and they were both tilted over.

so i had to tidy up, and then take them apart to check. the bottom shelf had dropped, and the melamine had de laminated and chipped off. pita i had thought the plinth would hold it, but no.

then late last week when trying to instal broadband for a friend i had to move their bed, and guess what, the end broke off, it too was melamine, and it too had de laminated.

so i repaired the bed with coach bolts and nuts, but it does not look quite so pretty, and am sure someone will cut themself on the bolts

so how long should melamine last before it de laminates???


paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Depends what. Formica on ply will last years. B&Q MFC months. And how used and fitted of course.

cheers
Jacob

[paulchapman]

As Jacob says, it depends what it is - your post is a bit unclear. Formica can peel off after time if glued down with contact adhesive in my experience - the adhesive continues to dry out over the years and it just peels off eventually. The stuff in your garage could have absorbed moisture - was it chipboard Flexing on the shelves would not have helped either.

Cheers

Paul

[''The village idiot'']

I don’t think Formica is what the OP is talking about but normal melamine faced chipboard ( MFC ) as stated in his first line

The surface should not delaminate. The chipboard core will swell if it gets damp but the melamine finish will swell with it. But the edge finishing is a totally different matter. Edging on such panels is applied by heat and pressure i.e. a iron, if the heat setting is to low or the process is carried out to quickly then you will get a delimitation of the edging due to the glue not melting etc, etc.

The chipboard core would may not be moisture resistant and so is prone to damp.

Edge banding

[engineerone]

gawd do i really write so unclearly ;D

the wardrobes were actually bought from a chain some years ago, and were mfc.

the bed frame was the same mfc bought from a chain store.

in both cases, the break was around the fixings.

so i guess what i am saying is be careful to ensure that round the fixings, whatever you make or use is properly supported.

and paul, my workspace is indoors not the garage

paul

[paulchapman]

Jul 15, 2008 10:45:59 GMT engineerone said:

gawd do i really write so unclearly ;D


in both cases, the break was around the fixings.

To the first point - yes ;D

To the second - chipboard is not structurally very strong. It's full of holes like Aero chocolate. So it easlily breaks up around the fittings - particularly if they expand at all. Best if you can avoid taking it apart or moving it really. Can look nice when it's new but not really very good if you want it to last for years.

Cheers

Paul

[jfc]

Can we get back to the part where you repaired the bed with coach bolts and your worried about them cutting themselves ;D Some where handy to hang the handcuffs i suppose ;D

[paulchapman]

;D

[engineerone]

sorry jason, no pictures of the difficulties ;D

however i just know that as in all these circumstances,
someone will try to move carefully round the bottom of the bed, and then no doubt scrape their shin


anyway we hang the handcuffs from the chandelier,
doesn't every body ;D

paul

[jaco]

The melamine will delaminate where you have moisture creeping in, or it was badly pressed in the first place.

The company that i do contract work for, press melamine as an added value product, and this is the type of rejects you get, poor adhesion, moisture, porosity.

Go back to the source, or has it stood in water??

[''The village idiot'']

Jul 15, 2008 10:45:59 GMT engineerone said:

gawd do i really write so unclearly ;D

the wardrobes were actually bought from a chain some years ago, and were mfc.

the bed frame was the same mfc bought from a chain store.

in both cases, the break was around the fixings.

so i guess what i am saying is be careful to ensure that round the fixings, whatever you make or use is properly supported.

and paul, my workspace is indoors not the garage

paul

That’s what I call leading people up the garden path. Saying one thing and meaning something completely different.

Or is broken and delimitation the same?


You have made me a cup of tea when I required coffee.

You asked for tea

I meant coffee, aren’t you a mind reader ?

sorry no.

[engineerone]

gawd i must eat more dictionaries ;D

actually what seems to have happened is the area around the fixings broke down, and then as it broke, it delaminated over a bigger area

so does that make it easier to understand.

when a fixing loses its hold, then it pulls an area of the lamination off, and depending on how well that is glued, depends on how much it delaminates


paul

[''The village idiot'']

It’s just broken no more, no less. And when MFC fractures it damages the surfaces just like it would with solid timber. You don’t say solid timber as delaminated you just say it’s broken. The melamine is a paper decorative finish only and adds no structural strength to the chipboard core what so ever.

Take a look at this

And this

You will see in both cases the MFC is only a paper decorative finish impregnated with melamine resin, and is note a true laminate.

[engineerone]

i do not understand your problem in understanding this.

the fact is that mfc is a compressed type of manufacture
which is impregnated with resins to glue it to gether under
high pressure, the way in which it is made ensures that is
has a kind of layering, and of course the need to ensure
that the outside is tight and strong enough to ensure that
the whole product has structural integrity.

if apart breaks and the whole moves, then it will crack in
certain places, and take the "paper " covering with it, if the glue
is strong enough, then it will break the structure in a way which resembles de laminating.

it is a fact that when racing cars were made of fibre glass, when you had a crash, the structure broke in such a way as to "delaminate". this does not normally happen with carbon fibre, because it is processed under greater heat.

because of the grain of wood you could easily say it delaminates in certain circumstances, when it is damaged and the joint fails, but we do not because it is much easier to say breaks. plywood obviously delaminates.

so what was the question??

the bloody things fell apart, and in that, the laminate took off a great deal of the thickness of the whole pice. to me that is delaminating.
paul

[paulchapman]

Jul 16, 2008 12:43:23 GMT engineerone said:

i do not understand your problem in understanding this.

I didn't understand your original post either, Paul. Now that you've explained it more, it's clear that what has happened is that the chipboard has broken up around the fittings because of forces applied to them that the chipboard couldn't withstand. That's not really delaminating in the normal sense of the term.

Cheers

Paul

[''The village idiot'']

Jul 16, 2008 17:45:29 GMT paulchapman said:

Jul 16, 2008 12:43:23 GMT engineerone said:

i do not understand your problem in understanding this.

I didn't understand your original post either, Paul. Now that you've explained it more, it's clear that what has happened is that the chipboard has broken up around the fittings because of forces applied to them that the chipboard couldn't withstand. That's not really delaminating in the normal sense of the term.

Cheers

Paul

Thank you

[mrgrimsdale]

"De-laminating" makes sense to me. MFC not as laminated as ply, but it is to some extent, in that the melamine surface will behave differently from the chipboard substrate.
As to why it happened - MFC is crap anyway with only a short life, and design and fittings have to take account of this.

cheers
Jacob

[paulchapman]

Jul 17, 2008 6:55:17 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

"De-laminating" makes sense to me.

That figures ;D

[jaco]

Jul 16, 2008 10:21:30 GMT ''The village idiot'' said:

It’s just broken no more, no less. And when MFC fractures it damages the surfaces just like it would with solid timber. You don’t say solid timber as delaminated you just say it’s broken. The melamine is a paper decorative finish only and adds no structural strength to the chipboard core what so ever.

Take a look at this

And this

You will see in both cases the MFC is only a paper decorative finish impregnated with melamine resin, and is note a true laminate.

You are so right Sir!
The problem is when you get damage to a corner or edge and moisture gets in, the chip-board or MDF will"disintegrate"

[engineerone]

worrying,

i have mentioned something with which jacob agrees ;D ;D ;D

i do understand the other comments but if you ask none users they would tend like me to think of delaminating as the reason.

paul

[''The village idiot'']

Jul 17, 2008 17:49:55 GMT jaco said:

Jul 16, 2008 10:21:30 GMT ''The village idiot'' said:

It’s just broken no more, no less. And when MFC fractures it damages the surfaces just like it would with solid timber. You don’t say solid timber as delaminated you just say it’s broken. The melamine is a paper decorative finish only and adds no structural strength to the chipboard core what so ever.

Take a look at this

And this

You will see in both cases the MFC is only a paper decorative finish impregnated with melamine resin, and is note a true laminate.

You are so right Sir!
The problem is when you get damage to a corner or edge and moisture gets in, the chip-board or MDF will"disintegrate"

Thank you

[''The village idiot'']

Jul 17, 2008 17:56:41 GMT engineerone said:

worrying,

i have mentioned something with which jacob agrees ;D ;D ;D

i do understand the other comments but if you ask none users they would tend like me to think of delaminating as the reason.

paul

In my very long career (40years that’s if you include my 5 year apprenticeship) I have never heard MFC delaminating only broken even by very inexperienced DIYers .