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Post by tusses on Aug 4, 2008 7:11:14 GMT
RE :- Garage Doors ... what would you have done differently what did I do right / wrong ? obviously - I know I used the wrong wood  This is the 1st time I have made anything on this scale. and apart from a small coffe table, its the 1st time I've made M&T's do any of you leave the horns on for glue up ? etc etc /... |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 4, 2008 10:41:12 GMT
Yebbut what was the problem exactly? (I've been away, have I missed something?)
Yes deffo leave horns on for glue up. In fact until last possible minute as they protect the corners.
cheers
Jacob
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Post by tusses on Aug 4, 2008 10:57:31 GMT
no problem realy the WIP's is in the project section - garage doors. Its the 1st time I've made doors. let along large garage doors. I am learning  I read up a bit and made them how I thought was right considering the tools I have to use. I just wondered how someone else might have done it. Is there anything I did that is inefficient ? or completely wrong ! was it ok to leave out the diagonal brace and clue in a ply panel instead ? Just trying to get an insight as to how a pro would do it Thanks Rich |
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cadas
Full Member
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Post by cadas on Aug 4, 2008 16:28:04 GMT
I would have made them thicker, finishing at at least 50mm, plus I would have used redwood, not internal softwood carcassing.
Other than that they weren't far off.
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cadas
Full Member
Posts: 107
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Post by cadas on Aug 4, 2008 16:34:49 GMT
Sorry, to add,
When you are starting out, I found that I was, in hindsight, too eager to please. The clients inevitably wanted it cheap so you end up compromising on materials ie, buying cheaper stuff, or buying thinner stock and trying to wing it a bit on thickness.
End of the day, when you compromise for a client and something goes wrong, you can't stand there and say 'but if you had paid for the right wood it wouldn't have happened'.
I tried that and it never works.
If you use the right stuff and do a good job you get repeat or referred work, when you compromise the job you get an awkward client and a dodgy reputation.
It is hard and feels like committing financial suicide but stick to doing it right first time, it pays off in the end.
I say all this from experience.
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Post by jfc on Aug 4, 2008 16:49:47 GMT
I would have made the haunches a bit longer (half way ) and the tenons a little bit thinner ( 12 - 16 mm ) but thats getting picky ;D I would have wedged the tenons though . You can still do this even now they are hung .
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Post by tusses on Aug 4, 2008 17:46:03 GMT
thanks all. the wood ... last time I used this merchant, the wood was a lot better. I had been on the office and orders and payed before I went out and picked my wood ! But ! lesson learned - wont happen again. the wedged tenons - even with PU ? or does the glue not make thatr much difference ? Also, when you say wedged - do you mean tapering the mortises too ? or just slotting and wedging the tennons ? I am gratefull for all your comments. As I am self taught, this is all the feedback I have. if I was working/training under somone else then I would get advice and bollocked as I went along ! so feel free |
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Post by jfc on Aug 4, 2008 18:07:25 GMT
Basicly cut them as you have and then cut a wedge shape out of the back of the mortice . The theory is you are not relying on the glue to hold your work together .  Also keep the square part of the wedge against the tenon and put the end one in first so it pulls your joint tight to the start of the mortice . |
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Post by mel on Aug 4, 2008 21:40:12 GMT
we dont mind offering advice but teech you {to spell possibly} teach you why do you want to learn ? what do you want to learn ? its a massive learning curve it will take you years to master it spend a few years starting at the bottom days and days and weeks and weeks sharpening the tradesmans chisels then when youve mastered that. practice cutting joints by handtools only {no CLS here } no power tools then when you get the paperwork you need add years and years of learning and they let you loose on site so you can graft your gonnads off on pricework , to earn a pittance compared to a plumber or an electrician or even a brick layer . all off which have half the tools you need to do your job its a lovely job in the winter too. picture the scene sat in a nice clean, warm, cabin eating your sandwiches with your clean hands {and then the alarm went off}{ or somebody farts in the cubicle next to you } ;D so do you still want to be a joiner  my advice would be to go back to your computer , or whatever job you do. and enjoy the air conditioned office enviroment its bit of a high horse for me since the influx of the european workforce rant over mods , if you want to edit my reply , for being too close to the truth . then please do |
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Post by nickw on Aug 4, 2008 21:42:37 GMT
I'm a bi tworried about the idea of acclimatising timber that is to be used for external doors in your workshop. Might have been better to leave it outside but under cover e.g. car port etc.
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Post by jfc on Aug 4, 2008 22:12:13 GMT
Nick has a good point there . In the years i have been doing external Joinery i have never tried to alter the moisture content of the timber i use . I buy it from a timber yard that has the timber stacked for air flow and i pick every bit myself . If i can take a bowed timber to cut into shorter bits i will because i know the yard cant sell it but i can use it . I also stack the timber back as i found it ( even better most times )
I also dont bother bringing the timber inside the house for external joinery but then i dont make alot of "fine joinery " Like some of the guys here . To be honest i wouldnt bother then either ;D
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 5, 2008 7:28:38 GMT
Main thing about learning IMHO is to look closely at old stuff, in your case - old garage doors ;D or any old heavy-ish doors.
The reason being, the older it is the more likely it will have been made by skilled tradesmen still working in "the great tradition". Also the fact that it survives means that the design worked.
Too much emphasis on creativity nowadays, and the idea that you can just make stuff up. Copy copy copy!! Don't attempt to think for yourself until you can competently reproduce suitable traditional examples in your chosen sphere of work.
cheers
Jacob
PS nothing wrong with the wood BTW, but the design and construction a bit slack.
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Post by jfc on Aug 5, 2008 8:49:50 GMT
Jacob , have you missed the fact the timber was CLS ?
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Post by Scrit on Aug 5, 2008 9:31:14 GMT
the wedged tenons - even with PU ? or does the glue not make that much difference ? Oh, it does. PU is a "get you out of a hole" product, but it can be murder to clean up and the joint strength isn't that high. It is beloved of American DIYers because they seem to think it's gap filling properties relieve them of the need to make properly fitting joints, but it is known to break down and become friable under prolonged exposure to UV light and any loose joint filled with PU will have limited strength and will fail in time. Better to use a UF (urea formaldehyde) glue such as Cascamite which is waterproof or even a D3 (exterior grade) PVA, although the PVA is not as good as UF. Scrit |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 5, 2008 10:47:55 GMT
Jacob , have you missed the fact the timber was CLS ? Ooops ooh yes. Didn't know what CLS was as I never use it. Didn't look too bad in the photo's though. Redwood better. cheers Jacob |
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Post by tusses on Aug 5, 2008 11:15:41 GMT
thanks peeps I know my spelling sucks ! sorry  now then - just picking up a couple of points. sticking the wood inside ? when I bought it , it had been rained on. also - in thoery, half the door is outside and half is inside ! whats the best thing to do ? my plan was to get it painted on all sides to stop the MC changing after they were made. The MC was 10% BTW Th PU glue - I really did think this was the best to use. interesting to read Scrit's post. I have Titebond III , but thought the PU would be better. The joints were nice and tight, trimmed with a block plane to fit snugly . too eager to please ! yep , lesson learned. no more cheap wood ! copying old examples ... yes - I did find myself looking at how different doors were joined as I went through them ! why/what do I want to learn. why - I have tried many things over the years. woodworking is one of the things I dont get bored of. I didn't particularly like making the doors - I prefer smaller pieces of furniture, and nicer woods. what - just want other peoples views and to know how others work. one more thing to ask ... what would you have costed the labor at for a pair of garage doors ? I guessed at £350 which turned out to be not enough for the time they took. thanks again Rich |
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Post by wizer on Aug 5, 2008 12:50:19 GMT
what is wrong with CLS? OOI
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Post by Scrit on Aug 5, 2008 17:36:07 GMT
Jacob , have you missed the fact the timber was CLS ? Ooops ooh yes. Didn't know what CLS was as I never use it. Didn't look too bad in the photo's though. CLS is Canadian for "washing pole"................ Good for partition walls coz' it doesn't splinter your hands but other than that it's washing line pole section ;D |
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Post by jfc on Aug 5, 2008 18:23:34 GMT
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Post by wizer on Aug 5, 2008 18:24:26 GMT
Go on... What is it then? Or rather what's wrong with it?
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Post by jfc on Aug 5, 2008 18:27:40 GMT
Last set i did was £1500 plus materials but they did have a curved head and included the frame .
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Post by tusses on Aug 5, 2008 18:32:03 GMT
Last set i did was £1500 plus materials but they did have a curved head and included the frame . that seems more like it LOL ! |
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Post by jfc on Aug 5, 2008 18:32:53 GMT
The tree is grown fast and tall wizer . Making it no good for joinery but fine for first fix non structual work .
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Post by wizer on Aug 5, 2008 19:43:01 GMT
ta
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 5, 2008 20:29:28 GMT
Last set i did was £1500 plus materials but they did have a curved head and included the frame . that seems more like it LOL ! Sounds OK. Yours are simpler so praps £1k? = one weeks hard work + materials and a lot of bu66ering about. Materials costs are often a low proportion so it can be a bad idea to skimp on them - spoil the ship for haporth of tar etc and may be harder to work with and involve more waste: everybody loses! cheers Jacob |
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