Fold away internal window shutters

[dunbarhamlin]

Hi folks
I could do with some pointers.
I have some georgian(?) style shutters to make. These are replacements - the originals are long gone.
The trapezoid recess is there, and false top and bottom panels, so I'm happy about the style that's required, as I can just copy the mouldings that are there.
From memory the recess is 5' 3" high, 2.5" deep room-side, 3.5" deep window-side
There is no other panelling in the room.
Given the recess dimensions, I'm guessing my frame should be around an inch thick?
Are there rules of thumb for stile and rail widths?
Would you split this into two or three 'lights'?
At the fixed end, which way should the shutter be attached?
Any references (or previous threads you can remember) you'd suggest I burrow through?
Sorry for all the Qs. I'm helping someone out and this sounds fun, but I haven't done anything like it before and want it to be right.

Thanks
Steve

[mrgrimsdale]

Done a few of these. I'll dig out some snaps.
Do you mean that the whole structure is there except for the shutters themselves? Can you post a photo?
What you'd expect to find is a hinged panel on either side, carefully matched in to the structure, with a void behind.
These are very neatly done and I've come across houses where they have been painted in and the knobs removed, and nobody knew they were there. When you pull it out each has one or more folding leaves behind, which fold out to to span the window. These may be panelled or solid as they are only seen when the window is shuttered.
Held shut by a hinged bar which spans across, but hangs loose when the shutters are folded back into the box.

Very sophisticated Georgian joinery and very effective in use, for heat retention and security.

cheers
Jacob

[dunbarhamlin]

Hi Jacob
Would appreciate the pics, that'd be most helpful, thank you.
I'm without a (whole) camera at the mo - really need to sort it.
All that's there at the moment is a clean sided little alcove on each side of the windows, with no visible sign of fixings. The window and recess widths are such that twice the recess width covers half the window, so presume single fold.
Cheers
Steve

[opener]

I'm making a load of these at the moment so I've been learning all about them as well. There's a few pages on them in Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis.

The thickness should be 32mm if poss and if my pictures have loaded properly (first attempt at this) these show the shutters I am copying. The stiles of the outer leaf are 83mm inc mould, and the inner leaf are 70mm. The top and bottom rails are 120mm and the inner rails 142mm.

The panels have bead and butt on the back and I'm making them from mr mdf. The meeting stiles are rebated together.

I made a mockup of the shutters in plan to make sure they worked properly i.e. fitted the box and fitted the window when folded against it. They are hinged to the window with 3" cast butt hinges and to the inner leaves with backflap hinges.

The knuckle of the butt hinge must protrude beyond the shutter by only 1mm or they won't fit as expected in the middle when they come together, this will be apparent when making the mockup.

It's obviously important that the leaves are made flat and out of wind so they are flush to the box and also flat against the window.

Hope this helps, any other questions please ask.

Cheers
Malcolm

[dunbarhamlin]

Thank you Malcolm, most helpful.

I've ordered Ellis so will have some reading to do - expect I'll have Q's for the two of you after that.

Cheers
Steve

[opener]

Now I'm getting the hang of this picture posting lark I thought I'd stick a few more on.

This is my mockup:




This shows the position of the hinge relative to the shutters (mdf) and to the window (the oak strip)

[engineerone]

not another bloody rod ;D

looks interesting though

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Good snaps from Malcolm.

MDF aargh, don't do it!! (MDF=sh*te)

Instead of mock-up it's easier to draw a rod: a complete full size plan of the whole recess, and vertical section of salient details. You lay on your hardware - hinge knuckles etc, project lines with compasses to make sure everything will work without snagging.
The main detail is to get the 1st panel fitting really well - the one you see when the shutters are folded neatly into the box. Everything follows from that.

There are variations on Malcolm's shutters. Most common being splayed reveals giving trapezoid plan (and top panel). Splay is good for extra light and also gives slightly wider 1st panel of shutter, which might mean needing only one extra leaf instead of two.
That double shutter often a ground floor design i.e. goes up above eye level but clear above.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

For what its worth i wouldnt bother with a rod for simple joinery like this . You have what is in effect the rod already there in the frame work .
As for MDF = sh*te . Exterior or even MR would be more stable next to a single glazed window than solid timber . Ever thought it was the warped timber that made people paint them in in the first place because they didnt work or close properly ?

I often find these working in London and it is a joy to uncover them but a real shame to have to shut them back up because of the bad state they are in .

[dunbarhamlin]

Thanks for the further thoughts guys
I have my bro' sorting a 'rod' of basic dimensions plus a template of the recess interior today (um, yesterday now)
Since the existing top and bottom panels aren't fielded, was considering ply for the panels. Humidity is a biggie for me with instruments - so well aware that I'll need to allow for seasonal variation with this one - one thing that's making me think I really should be using coped MTs, rather than just applied moldings (though they do ant this painted) - thoughts? .
'T'ain't quite the same as mandolins - so your input's really appreciated
When I get down to putting saw to tree I really will try to sort pics, honest.
Cheers

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 20, 2008 22:37:06 GMT jfc said:

For what its worth i wouldnt bother with a rod for simple joinery like this . You have what is in effect the rod already there in the frame work .

But not if you are doing it in the workshop

As for MDF = sh*te . Exterior or even MR would be more stable next to a single glazed window than solid timber . Ever thought it was the warped timber that made people paint them in in the first place because they didnt work or close properly ?

They painted all softwood joinery as a matter of course. Not likely that they didn't work - many of them are till working today 100 200 years after they were installed. These chaps rally knew what they were doing, which is why it is essential IMHO to follow and copy every detail inc the wood. Main MDF prob is mass - it's nearly twice the weight of redwood. Second prob is screws - extra heavy mdf shutters will drop off the hinges in no time. 3rd prob is your client base - lotsa people will see the work and say what a pity it's done in mdf/ply/plastic/dogshit etc ;D ;D Worse - if the MDF fails (it will drop off the hinges) they won't blame the mdf, they'll blame you.

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 21, 2008 1:22:37 GMT dunbarhamlin said:

Thanks for the further thoughts guys
I have my bro' sorting a 'rod' of basic dimensions plus a template of the recess interior today (um, yesterday now)

So it'd be a lot easier if you put it all together on a rod. I keep saying this I know - it's a bit like having to tell people to tie their shoelaces - yes you can shuffle about without doing it but why bother?

Since the existing top and bottom panels aren't fielded, was considering ply for the panels. Humidity is a biggie for me with instruments - so well aware that I'll need to allow for seasonal variation with this one - one thing that's making me think I really should be using coped MTs, rather than just applied moldings (though they do ant this painted) - thoughts? .

Real wood best - as demonstrated by the longevity of the old shutters. Looks better too. Panel mouldings not good idea as they tend to move with the panels. Better to mold stiles/rails. Best way with the M&Ts is to do just the same as the originals - if you copy this sort of top class joinery you are on a really valuable learning curve

'T'ain't quite the same as mandolins - so your input's really appreciated
When I get down to putting saw to tree I really will try to sort pics, honest.
Cheers

[jfc]

Like i said i wouldnt bother with a rod , it's quicker to make them exact size and shoot them in on site when fitting i find . This way you can tweak them and get your gaps perfect .
I would make the frame out of solid timber with M&Ts but i would do the panel in MR or Exterior MDF .

[Telos]

Aug 21, 2008 6:56:02 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

So it'd be a lot easier if you put it all together on a rod.

Aug 21, 2008 8:11:31 GMT jfc said:

Like i said i wouldnt bother with a rod

Fight! Fight! Fight!






;D

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 21, 2008 8:58:55 GMT Telos said:

Aug 21, 2008 6:56:02 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

So it'd be a lot easier if you put it all together on a rod.

Aug 21, 2008 8:11:31 GMT jfc said:

Like i said i wouldnt bother with a rod

Fight! Fight! Fight!
;D

No not at all. Just two world class experts explaining their slightly different approaches to the same job. ;D ;D

cheers
Jacob

[wizer]

Could you use a Rod for this ??









;D

[engineerone]

actually what scares me more is the smile on the donkey's face, he looks like he is enjoying it too much ;D

and the driver has certainly made a ROD for his own back

paul

[dunbarhamlin]

Perhaps a pole would be in order to see if a rod should be used. Would need an option for those who prefer to perch on the fence.
Or maybe we don't need to go the full 9 yards - 5 1/2 should measure up ;D

Since these are going to be done offsite, and my brother's more Frenchified than I, a rod seemed wise. Then his '25.4mm Worm' won't spoil the tune when I'm humming 'Inch Worm'
Was also going to make a finished thickness hinged template/rod/thing before anything else to test in situ to confirm it'll fold away and extend as needed.

Steve

[jfc]

Just two world class experts explaining their slightly different approaches to the same job.

I couldnt have put it better myself ;D


although workshop and site trained most of my time has been on site refurbing old houses . This is why i look at the fitters point of view . If something needs a tweak but there is nothing to tweak your buggered . If everything was true and square then yes i would make a rod but most of the time i find it quicker to fit on site .

[opener]

Sounds like you got the impression I'm making the whole shutters from mdf, in fact only the panels are made from mdf and at the size of them it won't add much to the weight. The rest is made of solid timber.
And MR MDF is not sh*te.

Cheers
Malcolm

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 21, 2008 19:22:35 GMT opener said:

Sounds like you got the impression I'm making the whole shutters from mdf, in fact only the panels are made from mdf and at the size of them it won't add much to the weight. The rest is made of solid timber.
And MR MDF is not sh*te.

Cheers
Malcolm

Well the last time I used MR MDF, on a bit of external panelling - at the request of the architect, water got to it and it expanded into a horrible mess.

MR seems to mean 'just a tiny bit moisture resistant, if anything" ;D I got the firm impression it was sh*te ;D ;D, could be wrong but won't try again.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Well the last time I used MR MDF, on a bit of external panelling

MR MDF is Moisture resistant not water proof . You need Exterior MDF for external joinery . It has a brown core and is very stable .

Another case of someone not knowing the materials they are working with so dismissing them as rubbish ;D Sorry but i couldnt help that one ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

It was sh*te whatever it was!
But why not use wood anyway, esp in this situation?
Can't see what problem mdf solves.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

A few reasons i would use MDF over solid timber are ...

1. You dont need to joint it to make a larger panel .

2 . It wont cup or split , no knots .

3. It's more stable sat over the radiator that everyone has installed just below the window .

4. It's a waste of timber when there is a better material for the job .

I would be interested in the reasons why you would use solid timber .

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 21, 2008 20:38:16 GMT jfc said:

A few reasons i would use MDF over solid timber are ...

1. You dont need to joint it to make a larger panel .

2 . It wont cup or split , no knots .

3. It's more stable sat over the radiator that everyone has installed just below the window .

4. It's a waste of timber when there is a better material for the job .

I would be interested in the reasons why you would use solid timber .

Well it's an old building restoration project on a very fine bit of high class joinery. Ideally restoration/conservation should result in a finished product in good order, but which shows no sign of being restored, although sometimes this is not possible.
If a restorer is any good you won't know he's been.
MDF is a modern material and will show up. It will spoil the job for very little advantage.
And anyway I just don't like the stuff but I do like working with wood.
If mdf was the only option I'd pack it in and get a proper job!

cheers
Jacob