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Post by sainty on Aug 27, 2008 20:51:45 GMT
Hi all
I want to smarten up the way that I work. I currently use sketchup to provide visuals and design stuff, the next stage is to price things up which I do using a spreadsheet and "rough" workings from the sketchup model. I will then use the spreadshet to make cutting list, and if it warrants it I use cutlist plus to help cut up sheet material.
Now there must be a smarter way to work. Heres what I'm thinking, use sketchups component facility to create more detailed plans, including having stock components such as kitchen cabinets, drawers ect.
Export(?) components to excel and cutlist plus to generate basis for quote and cutting list resulting in me not sitting doing quotes until midnight. Is this possible?
Has anyone got any methods for speeding up this process?
rgds
Sainty
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Post by cnc paul on Aug 27, 2008 21:03:14 GMT
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Post by jfc on Aug 27, 2008 21:04:19 GMT
Im quite amazed that you go through all that bother . You can quote a job off a line drawing with dimentions and as for draw sizes etc you just measure them after you have made the carcass . I think you have over complicated things .
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Post by sainty on Aug 27, 2008 21:27:10 GMT
Im quite amazed that you go through all that bother . You can quote a job off a line drawing with dimentions and as for draw sizes etc you just measure them after you have made the carcass . I think you have over complicated things . In some respects, what I am trying to do is similar to making a Rod for the job. The sketchup model in this case becomes the rod and everything can be referred back to it. Take your french windows. You could pull glazing bar, rail and stile components from you library, resize them accordingly and put together a detailed drawing. From that you can export to excel, which would then list all the components to which you could apply costs and overheads (which would probably be pretty standard and easy to apply). You then export to cutlist plus, which provides you with your cutting list, "bill of materials" and part numbers. You could also use sketchup to print detailed drawings where necessary even in a 1:1 scale which creates the rod. Now if you need to change anything you do it in skecthup and a couple of exports later you have an updated quote and cutting list. It sounds too complicated to me, but I was just wondering if it could be done to improve efficiency. Cheers Stu |
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Post by engineerone on Aug 27, 2008 21:41:22 GMT
i use design cad for the work i do, and on the drawing can therefore layout the various cuts and sizes, then move them around to make the best of sheet sizes. obviously if you are concerned about grain layout it becomes more complex, for instance using veneered mdf, but even then you have some constants. there was an add on to design cad called k2 which offered cutting lists for kitchen and other cabinets so called sheet goods. it is a 2/3d programme, and to me as a draughtsman much easier to use than sketch up, different skills i guess  but you do seem to be using too many programmes, i thought that sketch up allowed you to relate to components.  paul  |
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Post by jfc on Aug 27, 2008 22:04:00 GMT
I sort of understand what you are trying to do but i dont think it works for us . You cant allow for a dead knot on a computer and at the end of the day pricing per LM is easy once you have checked the prices with a local timber yard .
I think you are making work for your self just as i think making a rod for every job is making extra work .
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Post by cnc paul on Aug 27, 2008 22:07:24 GMT
Im quite amazed that you go through all that bother . You can quote a job off a line drawing with dimentions and as for draw sizes etc you just measure them after you have made the carcass . I think you have over complicated things . I like to know exactly what I need to do before I start.....I wrote a programme to output every component detail of kitchen or wardrobe cabinets from carcases, face frames, doors, drawer boxes to suit the max length Tanden runners that will fit the depth of carcase. The carcase panels are sent to Cutlist where they are optimized, then saved as a DXF file for machining. I never have a problem with a mis-calculation and I don't have a bunch of carcases kicking around while I make the doors and drawers. Paul |
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Post by sainty on Aug 27, 2008 22:23:27 GMT
JFC, take your MDF thread as an example, if I were to do that, I would probably draw it out in my little book, and then model it in sketchup to get the proportions right. Then I would create a cutting list for the carcass, you know the sort of thing the back panel is the width of the unit minus the width of the two side panels plus the depth of the rebate in the side panels x2 etc. Now with the exception of the arc at the top, its pretty standard cabinet work (all done to a very high standard of course!). I think that something like that could quite easily be "standardised" into a collection of components that could be put together in about 30mins. It would also be accurate, no need to double check.
I'm not so sure that it translates to windows/doors quite so easily but I'm sure it could be done.
I think that you have put into place what I was talking about Paul. You seem to be a couple of steps ahead of me again! What program do you use to create your component list?
rgds
Stu
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Post by jfc on Aug 27, 2008 22:26:08 GMT
But you are working CNC . You can optimise every part and get it right .
Why do you want to work so tight on the materials ? They can be used on the next job .
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Post by engineerone on Aug 27, 2008 22:38:31 GMT
obviously in sheet cabinet work, for kitchens, or other built ins etc, that you use mdf, or mfc, or even veneered mdf, it is useful to use a programme, but in solid wood, then you cannot ensure that you can use all the wood that you have, as jason says knots and shakes etc. paul |
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Post by jfc on Aug 27, 2008 22:40:57 GMT
Sainty ,
Regarding the MDF thing , i price it as what i can get out of a sheet . 1.2 does two sides , 2.4 does the hieght . It's easy and i cant understand why you want to penny pinch on cheap materials unless you have a CNC . It takes more time sorting through the off cuts to find a square edge than it takes to buy some more .
Its the same with solid timber , you need to allow for waste .
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Post by sainty on Aug 27, 2008 22:55:53 GMT
JFC, Penny pinching is not really the motive - its about working smarter. Taking a design in Skecthup and producing accurate costings, cutting lists and a bill of materials. If you could see the way that I work, you'd understand a bit more about why I'm exploring the possibilities of doing this (usually up to my eyeballs in offcuts and unknown components!). If I can smarten up the "front end" of the process I can, hopefully, increase productivity at the and make up all the time spent and more. If we were to make the same unit, lets say a built in alcove unit to the same specification, we would both have to cut the same components, we would both need to create a cutting list of sorts and I doubt that the whole process would differ much between us. All I want to do is introduce an element of "production" and accuracy to MY work. I don't want anyone to think that I am proposing this as an ideal system, just one that I think would work for me. Although my way is better rgds Stu |
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Post by engineerone on Aug 27, 2008 23:46:44 GMT
to me the biggest problem with being too accurate with any cad programme is that you cannot guarantee that the saw cuts will all be accurate unless you use a panel cutter, and then you have to know the saw kerf width to give yourself a fitting chance. however, as i know to my cost, it is also important to understand the way in which you cut a number of panels to ensure that they are all the same width or height. in which case a cutting plan has in sheet goods some advantages, however, it is much simpler than drawing in sketch up, then transferring to excel,and then to a third programme. having just designed a built in for a mate to build i have been able to maximise the sheet usage, whilst minimising the waste, but only by making sure that there is enough room to ensure that even the widest bluntest panel saw in the local wood yard will not impinge too much on my calculations, and still i end up with at least half a sheet over, plus some useable odds and sods, not sure you can ever not do that however clever you are. paul |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 28, 2008 3:34:49 GMT
I wouldn't do because let's face it I couldn't do it!
But if that's what floats your boat then why not? Well for a start it sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. As jfc says there are easier ways, but then if you got a mega order you might have a big advantage.
Presumably you would have to identify with a number, and know the size and details, of every piece of stock including off-cuts. But off-cuts take care of themselves if you follow the easy rule of thumb - "always cut largest pieces first, from the smallest pieces available".
It depends on exactly what problem you are trying to solve - if it's "doing quotes until midnight" then maybe you are looking at too much detail already and you should revise your methods.
But don't let us discourage you just because we couldn't do it !
cheers
Jacob
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Post by cnc paul on Aug 28, 2008 6:32:34 GMT
But you are working CNC . You can optimize every part and get it right . Why do you want to work so tight on the materials ? They can be used on the next job . My work varies so much that I might not use a particular material for 6-12 months, so I don't want loads of offcuts lying around.besides space is money. I agree that it would not work for solid wood. What program do you use to create your component list? I wrote it myself. Presumably you would have to identify with a number, and know the size and details, of every piece of stock including off-cuts. But off-cuts take care of themselves if you follow the easy rule of thumb - "always cut largest components first, from the smallest piece available". Even using a sheet optimizer you will have offcuts, but what it does is maximize its size to be usable, if you keep a tally of them Cutlist will use them first on the next job with that material. Cutlist will keep stock control but I do not bother with that if it calculates a job will need 5 1/2 sheets and I have 1 1/2 in stock I will only need 4 sheets.  hey I'm getting good at this maths lark........ I do not bother with offcuts less than a 1/3 of a sheet. Paul |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 28, 2008 6:41:37 GMT
snip Presumably you would have to identify with a number, and know the size and details, of every piece of stock including off-cuts. But off-cuts take care of themselves if you follow the easy rule of thumb - "always cut largest components first, from the smallest piece available". Even using a sheet optimizer you will have offcuts, but what it does is maximize its size to be usable, if you keep a tally of them Cutlist will use them first on the next job with that material. Cutlist will keep stock control but I do not bother with that if it calculates a job will need 5 1/2 sheets and I have 1 1/2 in stock I will only need 4 sheets. hey I'm getting good at this maths lark........ I do not bother with offcuts less than a 1/3 of a sheet. Paul Might not be what you meant, but you need to minimize the size of off-cuts not maximise. Hence the rule of thumb above. Every new off-cut is one step towards scrap so you keep them as small as possible. So for example: you have 1 and 1/2 sheets (or lengths) in stock but you want to take 1/4 sheet. You take this from the 1/2 sheet off-cut. cheers Jacob PS the rule of thumb amounts to highly effective stock control and involves little or no thought or calculation. It extends through to waste at the end of the process - you chuck out the smallest stuff first, when your scrap-pile gets too big. Works for solid wood too. |
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Post by cnc paul on Aug 28, 2008 18:53:47 GMT
Jacob,
I agree with what you say about using offcut, but what I meant was that Cutlist will use the minimum number of sheet material for a job but leave any wastage in one large piece rather than lots of small ones.
Paul
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Post by mel on Aug 28, 2008 19:36:46 GMT
got to agree with jason here its too much hassle to go down this route {for me anyway} and of course its only any good if you are fully conversant with the programme you are using , be it sketch up or cad from what ive seen of both programmes you need some level of computer skill to be able to use it correctly wish i was as clever , but my skills lay elsewhere. |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Aug 28, 2008 19:49:39 GMT
Jacob, I agree with what you say about using offcut, but what I meant was that Cutlist will use the minimum number of sheet material for a job but leave any wastage in one large piece rather than lots of small ones. Paul The rule of thumb does just the same! But without having to think too much , or use a computer. cheers Jacob |
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Post by Scrit on Aug 28, 2008 20:09:26 GMT
to me the biggest problem with being too accurate with any cad programme is that you cannot guarantee that the saw cuts will all be accurate unless you use a panel cutter, and then you have to know the saw kerf width to give yourself a fitting chance. But that's why you have wastage margins, Paul. Even CNC beam saws aren't always accurate so you don't start with the premise that 2440 x 1220 is that (or for that matter has straight, undamaged edges or is even truly square) it is also important to understand the way in which you cut a number of panels to ensure that they are all the same width or height. can't you set-up your saw to cut reasonably consistently? In any case even if the panels are out by a millimetre or so it will either hide or can be taken out by a quick pass of the plane (hand or power). It's only when you're making stuff to go into exact size gaps (not really that frequent) that it really becomes critical in which case a cutting plan has in sheet goods some advantages Often Corel Draw works for me.......... For the more complicated stuff, though, it has to be CutList One thing, though, there's no such thing as cutting from sheet stock (or for that matter solid) without waste. Working out what an acceptable level of waste (and which won't impinge on your designs) is an essential part of any business. With different materials the wastage is different - take today foir me - 4 double sided doors lipped and laminated bith sides. Wastage factor 0% on door blanks, 30% on lippings but 60% on laminate (and at £80/sheet and two sheets a door that hurts). Unfortunately lami sheets don't come in door blank sizes...... I think it is possible to "over-calculate" costs, though. I've done exercises where every component is drawn in CAD, impositions on sheet worked out and the components costed to the last penny. Works great until someone drops a part on edge and it has to be remade....... I've found it easier to have a wastage factor for any given material and to simply add that onto the component area to arrive at an approximate material cost and give me a rough quantity of sheet stock to order. Simple carcasses I've built an Excel spreadsheet for which can also work out drawer sizes, runner sizes, etc. Amazing what a bit of VBA can accomplish Scrit |
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Post by engineerone on Aug 28, 2008 20:31:27 GMT
actually scrit what i was referring to was if you are cutting say 5 sheets, then it is better to make all the cuts of one size, on all the sheets, before moving to the next size. this ensures that all the cuts are the same width/depth etch. particularly when you get things cut in a shed. where even if the guy resets the sheet he cannot accurately guarantee that the dimensions are right. i do however agree that you cannot guarantee that the sheet will be totally square and accurate so a centre cut is i guess the best first cut if you can otherwise as you have said before, you need to do the edge cut. paul |
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Post by sainty on Aug 28, 2008 20:58:43 GMT
It depends on exactly what problem you are trying to solve - if it's "doing quotes until midnight" then maybe you are looking at too much detail already and you should revise your methods. Jacob, you might have hit the nail on the noggin! That's certainly one of the aspect of my work that I'm trying to address. I prefer to have worked out the details at quote stage so that I don't have any nasties when it comes to construction and installation. Maybe I could present less detail but I'm not sure whether I am a) comfortable with that, and b) able to trust myself to quote without working out the detail. I guess my idea is that over time I have enough components in sketchup that it takes very little time to come up with the level of detail that I am comfortable with and that time that I spend will result in a quicker build at the end of the day. Theres an analogy with the recent triumphs for the GB cycling team. One part of there approach was to analyse all the preparation and make small but significant improvements (1-2%) at every stage - diet, training, sleep patterns, equipment etc - those small improvements when added up contributed to a significant overall improvement whereas looking at just one detail on its own doesn't make enough difference. Now that's all a bit theoretical but hopefully gets the point across. I just want to look at my process, make improvements and hopefully at the end of the day I will improve quote conversion, productivity and profitability. cheers Stu |
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Post by jfc on Aug 28, 2008 21:10:11 GMT
It sounds to me like you want to run a joinery business with many factors that can go wrong like an office where the biggest problem is your biro runs out of ink ;D
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Post by sainty on Aug 28, 2008 21:23:50 GMT
Sh!t, biros running out of ink, I hadn't considered that - If I model a biro in sketchup, maybe several different colours, export that to excel then use the spreadsheet to manage the inventory of biros - linking that to my re-ordering spreadsheet which uploads to my re-ordering system....few that's that sorted then.. ;D ;D
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Post by jfc on Aug 28, 2008 21:33:24 GMT
;D
On a serious note why do you do most of the work for a quote ? Do you get every job you quote for ? I must admit if i am quoting for say a refurb on a club i will try and factor every detail but if its just a set of wardrobes i dont need to go into major detail as i know what i need by just looking at rough dimentions .
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hey I'm getting good at this maths lark........ I do not bother with offcuts less than a 1/3 of a sheet.