Working without deposit

[lynx]

How many people work on a job without a deposit?

I have a client that has not, and is still not willing to pay my deposit requirement until i have finished all the final drawings and given 3d visuals. The client is also trying to get the deposit down to 3%

All i see is the client then using these drawings and going elsewhere.

[engineerone]

tell him to go walk with the fairies.

we are entering a recession, which will i am sure be nastier than many can imagine, and lots of people will commission work, then try and knock the maker. to protect yourself, you should agree to sell him the drawings for a fair design price, then charge a separate price for the work, and take at least 33% deposit.

other wise you do not need or want the work. if you have followed the chair thread elsewhere, sgian dubh also says he would charge extra and outside the commission for the drawings,
at least that way you get paid for your ideas and time.

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

From what you have said I'd guess he is an ar**ole and you would be better pulling out now. Things are unlikely to get any better. An ar**ole doesn't suddenly change it's spots I've had one or two like that and it's trouble all the way, especially when you get to the final bill.
If you go ahead make sure you overcharge him at each stage payment so that you are ahead of the game if he tries to avoid final payments.
If there is a lot of design work you should charge for this separately whatever the outcome, whether or not you get the job.

cheers
Jacob
PS forgot to answer your question:I hardly ever take advance payments, sometimes have only vague verbal agreements. Most clients are perfectly decent ;D

[jfc]

For smaller jobs ( a couple of hundred quid ) I do as Jacob says and just make a verbal agreement . Most of those jobs are replacement casement or sash openers so the person isnt going to knock you as they need what you are making them . Anything bigger i cover materials and sometimes a wage , again depending on the size of the job . I normally also take a payment half way through so there is not a huge amount to be paid / knocked for when done .
I wouldnt entertain someone haggling over the deposit

Why dont you tell them they will get the drawings when they have paid a fixed amount and if they go with you they get that amount back . Thatll stump em .

P.S add that amount to your price

[Sgian Dubh]

Sept 21, 2008 18:37:10 GMT lynx said:

I have a client that has not, and is still not willing to pay my deposit requirement until i have finished all the final drawings and given 3d visuals.

Never give a client working drawings. They don't understand them enough to know what they depict unless they are in the design business, but they do understand them enough to hawk them around other makers for a better price than your price.

A design fee should only be good enough for concept drawings-- they can see what it will look like but there are no construction details. If a client wants working drawings they can buy them off you for an additional fee.

Deposits are simply dealt with; no work is done by you until a deposit is paid. Work on your timescale too, not theirs, eg, if you say the job will take five weeks, add the rider that it will take five weeks after the deposit is in your bank account, subject to orders and deposits from other clients and that you work on a first come, first serviced basis-- in other words if their deposit is not paid timeously they could drop down the 'to do' list. That puts the onus on the customer to pay the deposit promptly if they want their job completed by a specific date; and that means you don't have to scramble about to make up for lost time due to lack of deposit payment on their part. Slainte.

[wizer]

Tricky. I know your business is young, so you need the work and refs. But I have certainly never commissioned work of this type and not been required to pay a deposit and regularly an instalment halfway. What makes them think they are in a position to negotiate over this. What reason have they given for not wanting to pay a deposit? I'd never have the cheek.

[mailee]

50% deposit and that makes sure they won't back out. Albiet my jobs aren't as rich as some of you guys but even so I hate wasting time on something someone won't pay for. If they don't want to pay the deposit then they don't want the work doing.

[jonnyd]

I usually ask for 25% deposit and stage payments for a large job. 3% is a joke. All of my clients are willing to pay a deposit and the details are always on the estimate to make it clear. I usually dont bother getting a deposit for small few hundred quid jobs.

jon

[sainty]

Don't know the size of job or what it is but it's worth remembering that it the client goes "retail" it will almost certainly 100% upfront.

Rgds

Stu

[''The village idiot'']

After viewing and talking over project with a prospective client I submit a detailed estimate no drawing and no specification. Just describing what I am willing to do and how much it may cost.

If the client accepts this estimate and wants to proceed they have to put there hand in there pocket for the design fee which is from £500.00 or pay 50% of the estimated cost. Once the prospective client as paid the design fee I produce detailed drawings, specification and quotation. This design and specification now belongs to the client so he or she can go to Budget & Scarper Incorporated if they so wish. If they award me with the project then I They get an invoice for a 50% deposite. The balance is paid less the design fee on collection or on completion of the fitting.

Projects with a value of less than £1200.00 are paid in full less design fee.

On large projects I take 50% deposit 40% on first day of fitting and the balance with in 7 working days of final invoice.

The deposit must repeat must cover the full cost of the materials.

This approach works extremely well for me, it sorts out the time wasters.

If any prospective client doesn’t accept my conditions, which are made crystal clear can take a long walk on a short pier. I have never lost a project when a design fee as been paid.

[Dan Tovey]

Sept 21, 2008 18:37:10 GMT lynx said:

How many people work on a job without a deposit?

I have a client that has not, and is still not willing to pay my deposit requirement until i have finished all the final drawings and given 3d visuals. The client is also trying to get the deposit down to 3%

All i see is the client then using these drawings and going elsewhere.

I would never work without a deposit.

I generally take a 25% deposit with the order which secures the client a slot in my production schedule. This is before any drawings have been done apart from preliminary sketches. Very often my order form reads something like;

1 Kitchen . . approx £12000 . . Details to be confirmed.

I then take a further 25% when I am actually ready to start work - normally 3-6 months later. At this meeting with the client I sort out the final design and specification and take detailed measurements of the room.

The remaining 50% is payable on completion.

This system works well for me. My cash flow gets the boost of the initial deposit while the second one pays for all the materials.

I also like to have the incentive of a chunky balance to pick up when I am finished!

The vast majority of clients are happy too. The odd one who has jibbed has proved to be a nightmare in other ways too.

So now I just walk if they won't agree to my terms.

[nickw]

I take a 50% non-returnable deposit on confirmation of order, which books a slot in my schedule, with the balance due on delivery. Howevevr by this stage they will have seen a SketchUp model of the item. The model may include the joinery etc. if I feel I need it for my own use but they will not have been shown that.

I have never yet charged an explicit design fee, but am considering changing this as I seem to be getting a lot of people withdrawing after that part of the process lately - this is probably at least partly down to the current economis situation.

A 3% deposit is laughable and does not get the customer's buy-in to the project. Walk away from this one.

[lynx]

Looks like he's walking away. I sent an email stating that i required a deposit and no further drawings sent unless this was cleared funds. "We'll call it a day" was the reply.

Better off without this one i feel.

[jfc]

Ive just had my next job refuse to give a deposit of half ( thats the cost of the materials ) He said he wants the job compleated and then he will pay the full amount . I can sort of see where he is comming from as they dont know me or my work although they got my number from seeing one of my jobs and knocking on the door to get my number .

[engineerone]

jason it doesn't matter whether he knows you or not,
you don't know him either so it is an impasse, since neither of
you want to get ripped off.

there might be a compromise in terms of depositing the money in
your bank and it being drawable against mutually signed notes, rather like a letter of credit.

however, in today's market place you have to expect people will try to knock you, so you need to cover your costs.

maybe you should get him to supply the materials against your
quote, then agree a fixed build price, at least then you only have your labour to worry about.

thing is what does he want you to build, have you checked him out, and is there any further work which might flow.

whatever the government are trying to say, we are in a recession, and people have less liquid cash, so you must ensure that you are not affected where possible. if a new customer does not want to pay a deposit, then the previous advice applies, walk away.

paul

[jfc]

I told him he could pay the timber yard direct but he wasnt happy with that either . It sent my alarm bells ringing .

[engineerone]

sounds like he is hoping you are desperate (more desperate ;D)

just keep saying NO ;D

paul

[dom]

If you do that job without a deposit, I will be round and slap you.

[jake]

Tell him that's your terms of business and it isn't negotiable.

[wizer]

Tell him you are happy to do it without deposit if he loans you his wife or eldest daughter for the duration of the job.

[scraper]

I've had a couple like that over the years, and never again. Best without them.

He 'knows' your work enough to ask for you to do it, so that's no excuse!

Best one I ever had was a well known 'local Italian businessman' who gave me a big job. I had never dealt with him before and asked for 50%, with an agreed delivery date.

He gave me 100% in cash there and then, adding "Just make sure it arrives".

It did! ;D

[gazza]

Some pretty sound advise already given to both of you ( Lynx and Jason)

Sept 21, 2008 19:41:33 GMT jfc said:

I wouldnt entertain someone haggling over the deposit

Simple really

Im sure we have all been down this road at some stage, and as others have said, clients who are finicky from the start almost always cause problems throughout the whole job Especially when it comes to the settling of the final bill

Oct 28, 2008 13:07:59 GMT jake said:

Tell him that's your terms of business and it isn't negotiable.

Excellent advise, and generally sorts out the timewasters.

My own tuppence worth , avoid like the plague
Cheers,
Gazza.

[jfc]

9/21/08 at 7:41pm, jfc wrote:
I wouldnt entertain someone haggling over the deposit

Time to take my own advice then ..... Blimey and i thought i was full of sh*t ;D

[davyowen]

Oct 28, 2008 12:58:23 GMT dom said:

If you do that job without a deposit, I will be round and slap you.

Don't encourage him Dom ;D

[jake]

Oct 28, 2008 21:55:36 GMT jfc said:

9/21/08 at 7:41pm, jfc wrote:
I wouldnt entertain someone haggling over the deposit

Time to take my own advice then ..... Blimey and i thought i was full of sh*t ;D

Oh don't worry you are - as it sounds like you've been entertaining him up till now. ;D