Fixing wobbly chairs

[jfc]

Ive had two chairs from a tea room dropped off to me to fix . The back legs are wobbling . The chairs are not of any worth so i need a quick fix that will last rather than taking them apart . Any ideas ?
I was thinking of drilling through the back of the legs and into the seat and glueing dowels in there .

[mrgrimsdale]

Tap apart far enough to squirt glue into the gaps, cramp up and then put steel angle-irons under the joint. Tea room customers won't complain!
You used to be able to get very neat blacksmith made chair re-enforcing brackets. I've got a pair somewhere I'll try and get a photo. They were good enough to look as though part of the design - touch of the Stickleys.

[Roger]

The quickest & easiest for a long lasting repair . . .

Miller Dowels from Axminster

Miller

Saves on Brackets, Screws which always work loose and look good

[engineerone]

veritas chair repair kit ;D ;D ;D

actually it involves a syringe.

the other way of course is to buy colin a pizza, and get him to do it

paul

[jfc]

The quickest & easiest for a long lasting repair . . .

Miller Dowels from Axminster

Miller

Saves on Brackets, Screws which always work loose and look good

I nipped into D and M today and picked up that set . Didnt work on thier own but worked when i added brackets .

[colincott]

Jason
Why did you not ring me as this is an easy repair that you could have done without buying the millers dowels.

If you have a cramp that will push the legs a part, you can then drill a small hole in the joint at the bottom near the leg, so that it goes at an angle in to the mortise ( if its a tenon ).

If you can get the joint a part enough and have drilled the hole, you then pump glue in the hole until you see glue coming round the joint.

Now all you have to do is clamp until the glue is dry and on need for steel angle-irons ( )

Job done and its great if it is just one joint that is lose

[mailee]

Ah I misunderstood the question there, I was going to suggest a folded up fag packet under one of the legs. ;D

[jfc]

Colin there was hardly any joint left as these are crappy repro chairs with rounded over tenons . Must have been repaired a few times . The seats where nailed to the back so taking it apart would have cost more than the chairs are worth . I charged double what he paid for them for the repair and have a few more to sort out . If i find a good one trust me i wont bodge it !

[colincott]

Send me a pic of the next one and I will try to help if you need any

[mrgrimsdale]

Those miller dowels look a neat idea - until you stop to ask yourself what is the point of having a stepped dowel. I can't see one myself!
What's wrong with using a normal straight dowel? If dowel you must. Not a good joint at the best of times.
And you wouldn't need to buy a special drill and special dowels. Which of course is what it's all about; selling stuff which nobody really needs, like 90% of the stuff in any woodworking catalogue. ;D ;D

[colincott]

Jan 20, 2009 6:30:42 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

Those miller dowels look a neat idea - until you stop to ask yourself what is the point of having a stepped dowel. I can't see one myself!
What's wrong with using a normal straight dowel? If dowel you must. Not a good joint at the best of times.
And you wouldn't need to buy a special drill and special dowels. Which of course is what it's all about; selling stuff which nobody really needs, like 90% of the stuff in any woodworking catalogue. ;D ;D

Hi Jacob
What do you base this on as I have use dowels for joints for year and repaired old ones that have lasted a long time.
So I would like to know why you think this?

[mrgrimsdale]

You've said it yourself Colin ; 'repaired old ones'. I have too - a lot of them fail because; they are not very strong. Worst situations are chair seat to back joint, (typically JFC's 'crappy repro chairs') or any external joinery with dowels instead of M&Ts.
In trad joinery dowels are used a lot for pinning through a M&T but never for a joint itself. Same with trad furniture - dowels occasionally used for locating pins but just about never for a joint.
Also you can't do belt and braces i.e. all trad joints are doubled up; glued and wedged and sometimes pinned as well.

[colincott]

What you have said does not make sense as I have also repaired old M&T that have failed so dont see how you see a difference between them

Dowels are not new, just them being used for all joints are newer than M&T.

When you talk about all Trad joints are doubled up, are you talk about furniture or door and windows?

If furniture, then you are not right as some were pinned and some not but I think pinned joints on furniture was also used so you did not need to clamp the joint.

[engineerone]

colin, ignore him, as usual he is trying to dress up ignorance in unfounded claims.

dowels, or pegs have been around for millenia, certainly rounded tenons, which is frankly all a dowel is have been around since the time of the egyptians, and study of certain grave goods shows this to be true.

stone mason's were and continue to use a form of dowel certainly since we began building cathedrals, mainly to stop
pieces of stone moving against each other, or building up stones to create, for instance statues, many of which were and continue to be made of sections joined together.

the dowel is an evolution of the green wood mortice and tenon joint, which is certainly more traditional than your ideas.

the joint between a leg and a chair is known to be the most difficult one to keep secure because of the various stresses, let alone the way in which we all abuse the chairs ie moving them to and from the table, leaning on them, swinging on them etc.

as for the miller dowel, it is an interesting approach to the use of joint reinforcement that allows one to accent said joint, rather like a draw pin. the varying sizes are to allow the joint to be drawn together more effectively as the dowel is hammered in.
no more nor less effective than a biscuit.

like all jointing is a question of using the most appropriate method for the actual usage. the m/t is an evolution of the joint made between various parts of the frame in a wattle and daub green wood house, and again many of the same joints were pegged or dowelled.

so called traditional joints like m/t's have evolved in response to their usage in construction, and adaptation to furniture, not all joints work in all situations, and a sliding dovetail is more effective in many joints than m/t. but not where a rocking motion is introduced like for instance in a chair leg joint.

modern dowels have evolved because of mechanisation, to allow companies to make practical furniture for low cost, something that can never happen with "traditional joints" which realistically require too much hand work, no matter how often you use your leigh or woodrat ;D

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Jan 20, 2009 9:19:52 GMT colincott said:

Dowels are not new, just them being used for all joints are newer than M&T.

They are not new - but not used traditionally as a joint itself, but more often as a pin through, or a locating pin.
Ellis mentions them only as a board edge joint, where they are as much for location as for joint strength.

When you talk about all Trad joints are doubled up, are you talk about furniture or door and windows?

If furniture, then you are not right as some were pinned and some not but I think pinned joints on furniture was also used so you did not need to clamp the joint.

Just about all architectural joinery has joints doubled (or trebled) up; glued and wedged and often pinned, and quite a lot of furniture also.

PS what does the miller dowel do, which an ordinary dowel doesn't? Nobody seems to know!

[engineerone]

since you aren't prepared to look it is difficult.

plainly because the dowel has 3 different diameters, it does two things, the lower part is rather like drilling a pilot hole, it locates the item, the other wider diameters draw the joint together as they are pushed through.

how much plainer do you want it to be explained

try not to make your ignorance so public, by claiming to base your comments on your perceptions not proper experience and knowledge

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Jan 20, 2009 13:25:58 GMT engineerone said:

plainly because the dowel has 3 different diameters, it does two things, the lower part is rather like drilling a pilot hole, it locates the item, the other wider diameters draw the joint together as they are pushed through.

how much plainer do you want it to be explained

How will they draw the joint together? If it is misaligned one of the shoulders will impact against the edge of the hole. It'd work if the hole and the dowel were tapered - or just the dowel, which takes us back to draw-boring.
Maybe we should expect the mark2 miller dowel system with tapered dowel and tapered drill, but then you wouldn't need the drill ;D

try not to make your ignorance so public, by claiming to base your comments on your perceptions not proper experience and knowledge

paul

Up yours too, twerp! Time you did a bit of woodwork Paul.

PS One of the strangest claims about the Miller dowel is that 'the dowels are a natural, durable alternative to corrosive metal fasteners like nails or screws'.
I can't think of a single situation where I normally use nails or screws, where this daft dowel would do a better job And they are about 10p each! Ridiculous!

[jfc]

;D

[paulchapman]

While I do occasionally use dowels, I only do so when there's no other option. If you look at the dowel and the piece of wood it's glued into, there's very little long-grain to long-grain contact and that is the reason so many dowelled joints fail in my view. If possible, I'd rather use a loose tenon.

Cheers

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

And glued surface area. The glued surface area of a 10x30x30 tenon is 2400. Not counting the ends. If you replaced this with a viable dowel substitution; 2 @ 10dia x 30 (i.e. quite close at 10 apart) then the glued surface area would be 1885 i.e. reduced by a third.
And the tenon would also be wedged, pinned, haunched if necessary, giving it even more strenth and also closing the gap between stile and rail (or whatever it is).

[roines]

I had someone ring me up and ask if I would repair a deck chair the other day. It's part of a set of 2 and they really didn't want to buy new ones, they suggested that if they dropped it in, it wouldn't take long and they would give me 5 whole pounds for my trouble.
Now I am sorely tempted with an offer of such generousity, I only need to do 2400 similar jobs per month and I will cover my overheads, more than 2400 and I start to make a profit provided I don't actually have to buy any matreials.
Right i'm off to put up my free ad in the newsagents.

[jfc]

Five whole pounds eh ;D Im charging twenty to knock a dowel in and screw on an angled bracket . I'm getting quite good at this bodging lark ;D

[roines]

Jan 20, 2009 17:15:29 GMT jfc said:

I'm getting quite good at this bodging lark ;D

Practice makes perfect

[jfc]

Well i have another two to do so i hope to get it down to under 2 mins per chair .

[roines]

Do you want me to come and weight test them.

Please remember this is last years picture, since then I have lost 4lb's