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Post by thallow on Nov 2, 2007 7:17:58 GMT
Having stripped back another of my old sash windows, I have discovered that the sill on this one is rotted to nothing at each end  taking the frame out is not an option - any other ideas? it is too big a space to fill with filler and the middle section of the sill is intact bit the ends are comletely random shapes where I have pulled away all of the rot? I will try and post some pics this weekend!  |
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Post by 9fingers on Nov 2, 2007 8:33:56 GMT
Hack back to reasonably sound wood and use the ronseal rot killing plugs and resin hardner (can't recall the name of the system). Then let in various pieces of wood and use the filler for the rest.
The other 'proper' way of doing it is to cut off the sill back to sound wood and fit a new one screwed & glued into the bottom of the frame/remains of the sill.
I've done both and once painted you would never know. the ronseal system might seem a bodge but it has lasted well so far - about 5 years I think.
Bob
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Post by royclarke on Nov 2, 2007 17:24:40 GMT
Why is it not an option? It could be the best way to do it.
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Post by thallow on Nov 2, 2007 19:51:17 GMT
Posted by royclarke on Today at 5:24pm Why is it not an option? It could be the best way to do it. True, but because I have just spent few months decorating the room inside  before I even gave any thought to the windows  on the outside......and swmbo would not be happy with what I would imagine to be a HUGE amount of mess and dirt by taing out a 100 yr old sash window?  Posted by 9fingers on Today at 8:33am Then let in various pieces of wood This is my problem, I have hacked back the rotten wood but am left with a stump either end (imagine a head of brocolli) so how do I attach to that when I cannot cut it back to a perfectly flat and square edge?  due to it being in situ Yours thoughts as always greatly appreciated! Thanks J |
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marky
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Post by marky on Nov 2, 2007 20:06:14 GMT
Take a look here. www.window-care.net/I use dryflex rp all the time and it will do exactly what you want. The site is in dutch but look at the top for the uk flag..... You will need no more than 1 set (1 normal mastic tube & 1 half size tube) It is not like filler but wear rubber gloves, clean off while wet with baby oil.. About £25.00 per set, make it go further by using offcuts of timber. Dont buy the dosing gun (mix is 3 to 1). EDIT- Re reading the worries about the end's, make up shuttering with bits of perspex (or any rigid plastic, prefebly clear) to the end, bottom and face all attached with mitre fix or superglue. Fill with the dryflex and tool off to the top surface. Leave to dry and break off the shuttering, the plastic will not stick to the resin and it will hold as if a spliced end was fitted. Done this too many times to mention. And, before anyone asks, I have nothing to do with the company... Marky |
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Post by 9fingers on Nov 2, 2007 20:56:30 GMT
Posted by 9fingers on Today at 8:33am Then let in various pieces of wood This is my problem, I have hacked back the rotten wood but am left with a stump either end (imagine a head of brocolli) so how do I attach to that when I cannot cut it back to a perfectly flat and square edge? due to it being in situ J[/quote] How about fixing a couple of temporary battens to the good parts of the sill and then use a router to create the flat surfaces you seek? Bob |
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Post by royclarke on Nov 2, 2007 21:01:51 GMT
.....and swmbo would not be happy with what I would imagine to be a HUGE amount of mess and dirt by taing out a 100 yr old sash window? If I do any job, I hate working dirty. Though the average builder type may see a mess as unavoidable or even a desirable macho trait, I am a right pansy and can use a chasing cutter in customers' furnished rooms, without dust sheets, and the place stays clean. Think about it, plan the way to do it, and you could probably do it without too much trauma. That way you can do a repair that will last another hundred years, rather than one that might just scrape 10, (or about as good as a uPVC window). |
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 0:49:49 GMT
thallow
the procedure is as follows, cut out both stiles above the weight pocket
cut out the outer cheek about 400mm up from the cill. remove the rotten cill, cut a new cill complete with all the housings and install
make new stiles, weight pockets and outer cheeks, you will almost certainly need to replace some of the box back as well
use pu glue where necessary, use biscuits for alignment and foam the back
dont forget to prime all the timber before re installation, modern quick grown timber needs all the protection you can give it
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 2:08:45 GMT
this method is not for the feint hearted.
but it is the ONLY way to do the job right
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 3, 2007 9:16:32 GMT
this method is not for the feint hearted. but it is the ONLY way to do the job right Except if you are going to that amount of trouble it'd be much easier to take the whole thing out and do it on the workbench.You do see splices done but it's nearly always for bays or others where removal is not an easy option. An ordinary window is very easy to remove, and on the bench you could renovate the whole thing and do a perfect job without splices or filler etc cheers Jacob |
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Post by tellurian on Nov 3, 2007 9:26:19 GMT
this method is not for the feint hearted. but it is the ONLY way to do the job right Except if you are going to that amount of trouble it'd be much easier to take the whole thing out and do it on the workbench.You do see splices done but it's nearly always for bays or others where removal is not an easy option. An ordinary window is very easy to remove, and on the bench you could renovate the whole thing and do a perfect job without splices or filler etc cheers Jacob Jacob, Why is removal from bays not an easy option? Interested in this thread as I have a few windows where I am going to have to fix some rotten sills, some of which are bay windows. Cheers, Tel |
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Post by thallow on Nov 3, 2007 10:26:04 GMT
Posted by marky on Yesterday at 8:06pm- Re reading the worries about the end's, make up shuttering with bits of perspex (or any rigid plastic, prefebly clear) to the end, bottom and face all attached with mitre fix or superglue. Fill with the dryflex and tool off to the top surface. Leave to dry and break off the shuttering, the plastic will not stick to the resin and it will hold as if a spliced end was fitted. I like the sound of this stuff but am not sure I could get right into the corners where the sill meets the side boxes? Posted by Jacob Except if you are going to that amount of trouble it'd be much easier to take the whole thing out and do it on the workbench. ???But how much mess would this actually create - I mean are we talking a few bits of plaster or will there be a 5-6 inch crevice all the way around the inside wall where the sash was/is currently sat? I must admit following on from the wealth of experience on here, I am leaning towards taking the whole thing out and doing a 'proper job' but as always there is the time factor ie never enough of it  plus I can only work on it weekends really so whaddo I do meanwhile have a boarded up window? I could live with that for a few weeks but i dunno bout swimbo I will deliberate for a short while and then decide......either way I will try and post some pics! Thanks again for input, v much appreciated ;D |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 3, 2007 11:14:12 GMT
Except if you are going to that amount of trouble it'd be much easier to take the whole thing out and do it on the workbench.You do see splices done but it's nearly always for bays or others where removal is not an easy option. An ordinary window is very easy to remove, and on the bench you could renovate the whole thing and do a perfect job without splices or filler etc cheers Jacob Jacob, Why is removal from bays not an easy option? Interested in this thread as I have a few windows where I am going to have to fix some rotten sills, some of which are bay windows. Cheers, Tel Cos sometimes (but not always) they are part structural |
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Post by tellurian on Nov 3, 2007 12:58:45 GMT
Jacob, Why is removal from bays not an easy option? Interested in this thread as I have a few windows where I am going to have to fix some rotten sills, some of which are bay windows. Cheers, Tel Cos sometimes (but not always) they are part structural Ah, I thought the answer might be something along those lines as I remember a news story from several years ago about people having bay windows replaced with the awful plastic and then finding that the whole bay structure starting to collapse. |
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Post by jfc on Nov 3, 2007 13:12:49 GMT
I did a top floor part of a bay for a friend of mine a few years ago . The house was a town house split into four flats and the front of the building was the timber bay . i replaced my friends bay and put new patio doors in for the flat above so they had a small roof garden . The flat below replaced his a few years later with UPVC and very shortly after they where fitted you could see the glass bowing .
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 19:54:30 GMT
it is very very unusual for box sashes to be part structural
the only period of time im aware of that lintols where routinely omitted from over windows was the latter parts of the second world war and into the early 1950s due to material shortages
AND because of material shortages / cost box sash windows went into terminal decline at this time as well
box sashes frames are traditionally hung from an internal timber lintol, the extenal lintol tends to be stone or a brick arch
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Post by royclarke on Nov 3, 2007 20:01:17 GMT
I must admit following on from the wealth of experience on here, I am leaning towards taking the whole thing out and doing a 'proper job' but as always there is the time factor ie never enough of it plus I can only work on it weekends really so whaddo I do meanwhile have a boarded up window? I could live with that for a few weeks but i dunno bout swimbo I will deliberate for a short while and then decide......either way I will try and post some pics! Thanks again for input, v much appreciated ;D You can make a frame from 4x1 (edge on if that makes sense). The frame goes over the whole opening. Cover the outside with polycarbonate sheet, and the side facing the wall fit a strip of 2" thick foam. Once the frame is out, hold the temporary "window" over the opening, and tie it to a couple of wooden bars which stretch across the opening on the inside. So you won't be boarded up. |
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 20:05:16 GMT
mr grimsdale your comments about taking the whole box sash frame out are unsderstood
but this is where reality and practicallity and finite bank accounts collide
most of the time it is the painter who finds out the problem and it is ALWAYS when he is doing external work
the customers VERY rarely have a bottomless pocket to then take on complete internal redecoration at the same time as the cost of external redecoration (which probably includes scaffolding as well)
moreover you can almost gurantee that if one window has this problem ALL the windows on that elevation have the same problem
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 20:09:03 GMT
mr grimsdale, i do understand that the only TRUE way of doing the job right is total removal to a bench
the method i use is the closest thing possible without removal to a bench
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marky
New Member
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Post by marky on Nov 3, 2007 22:40:43 GMT
ONLY & TRUE...
I agree that the best option (true) is to remove the window to bench and replace rotten parts.
I would'nt say that to replace parts in situ is the (only) way to perform this repair.
It always comes down to both a mixture of money and how much time and possible decorating is required after.
I think that whilst in some cases removing the window is best, Thallow mentioned that he had decorated and was reluctant to add to his workload.
Of course in the end what ever method is used I think thallow will do a great job...
Marky
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 3, 2007 22:52:41 GMT
thallow is the same as most customers, he needs it done insitu to save cost
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 4, 2007 10:00:34 GMT
it is very very unusual for box sashes to be part structural the only period of time im aware of that lintols where routinely omitted from over windows was the latter parts of the second world war and into the early 1950s due to material shortages AND because of material shortages / cost box sash windows went into terminal decline at this time as well box sashes frames are traditionally hung from an internal timber lintol, the extenal lintol tends to be stone or a brick arch I meany bays - sometimes you can't easily extract an individual sash case from a bay like you can a single one. I wouldn't say there were "hung" from a lintel, they basically sit on the sill on a bit of packing /mastic etc and are wedged at the head side to side. Are easy to remove once you have chipped away enough plaster and/or removed architraves. May be easier if you take out the inside linings first. You could board up, with or without temporary glazing, from the inside and hold it in place with wedges/battens or whatever. BTW it's all done from inside, even finishing of the outside with mastic is easy to do from the inside, before you re-hang the sashes themselves. cheers Jacob |
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Post by thallow on Nov 4, 2007 10:27:30 GMT
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Post by 9fingers on Nov 4, 2007 10:49:23 GMT
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Post by dirtydeeds on Nov 4, 2007 18:46:29 GMT
the answers are
yes
yes
and...............
yes
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taking the frame out is not an option - any other ideas? it is too big a space to fill with filler and the middle section of the sill is intact bit the ends are comletely random shapes where I have pulled away all of the rot?
before I even gave any thought to the windows 
on the outside......and swmbo would not be happy with what I would imagine to be a HUGE amount of mess and dirt by taing out a 100 yr old sash window? 
due to it being in situ
plus I can only work on it weekends really so whaddo I do meanwhile have a boarded up window? I could live with that for a few weeks but i dunno bout swimbo 
