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Post by dantovey on Nov 7, 2007 9:43:05 GMT
After years of making a reasonable living from my woodworking using mainly power tools and machinery I'm beginning to feel that something is missing.
Whenever I have had to use a chisel or my block plane (the only plane I own) I have always been struck by how much hard work it is - and immediately reach for a router, multimaster, or ROS. In a 'road to Damascus' moment though, I have realised the problem - I'm crap at sharpening blades!
It's my birthday comong up and my missus has promised me whatever I want. I've asked for a week's course in sharpening tools with David Charlesworth. £630!!!
She's happy for me to go - the thing is, will it be worth it? Bearing in mind I'll be losing a grand's wages while I'm away.
Has anybody been on one of his courses? Will a pro get anything out of it or are they strictly for hobby guys?
I'm aware that Mr C is a member here so your comments are very welcome too, David.
Rgds
Dan
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dunbarhamlin
Full Member
Lutherie with Luddite Tendancies
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Post by dunbarhamlin on Nov 7, 2007 12:27:09 GMT
Best bet might be to chat with Mr C on the phone - then the two of you will be able to quickly determine if your requirement matches the course content.
I went on a similar course recently, and for me it was a revelation - but then I use hand tools almost exclusively and wood is a (nearly) self sustaining hobby, not my income source.
ATB
Steve
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Post by andy on Nov 7, 2007 12:35:12 GMT
Reports are that the course is very good however for one plane and a few chisels it does seem extravagant in your case but then it depends on how much you are going to gain long term and only you can come to that decision.
Much can be done by practicing and probably a good DVD
Many methods are available and my only advise would be choose one to start with and get proficient with it and don't keep changing.
Perhaps if you told us your present method we could help you improve your initial skills
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Post by paulchapman on Nov 7, 2007 12:37:48 GMT
You own just one block plane and you propose to spend £1,630 (the true cost to you) to learn how to sharpen it  I'll show you how to do it for half that  ;D I am sure David's courses are very enjoyable and you would have a good time. But think about it - for £1,630 you could buy more Lie Nielsen, Clifton or Veritas planes than you would ever need, a complete set of best quality chisels and enough sharpening gear to last you a lifetime - and still have some change left over. And if you have a search on the internet you will find that more has been written about how to sharpen plane blades and chisels than almost any other woodworking subject. It's a no-brainer, I would have thought..... Cheers Paul |
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Post by andy on Nov 7, 2007 12:55:03 GMT
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Post by Dave S on Nov 7, 2007 13:33:46 GMT
I wonder whether much of the value of a course like this lies beyong the ability to tune and sharpen tools in a philosophy or approach to making.
If it is, then I think that to someone like me it might be the 'revelation' that Andy describes. Whether it would have true value for someone who already works successfully in the trade, I wouldn't know.
Dave
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pj
Junior Member
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Post by pj on Nov 7, 2007 14:18:01 GMT
Hope this isn't going to turn into one of those long winded debates on the merits of sharpening!  Where's Mr Grimsdale and Richard Jones ;D Seriously though, I agree with Steve in that a chat with Mr Charlesworth would be good to find out how much of the course is sharpening based and how much is tuning old planes. The reason I say this is, are you going to allocate more of your business time trying to get an old plane to work to it's ultimate or will you just buy a expensive plane, sharpen the blade and away you go. Philip |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 7, 2007 14:59:27 GMT
Hope this isn't going to turn into one of those long winded debates on the merits of sharpening! Where's Mr Grimsdale and Richard Jones ;D Seriously though, I agree with Steve in that a chat with Mr Charlesworth would be good to find out how much of the course is sharpening based and how much is tuning old planes. The reason I say this is, are you going to allocate more of your business time trying to get an old plane to work to it's ultimate or will you just buy a expensive plane, sharpen the blade and away you go. Philip Hello I'm here don't worry What an unbelievable waste of money I'd recommend an oil stone, oil and an oily rag. Don't bother with jigs; they make it much harder which is why sharpening has become such an issue. It used to be really easy before everyone started struggling with jigs. You are welcome to pop in here and I'll show you how to do it. Couple of hours max - no charge. ;D cheers Jacob PS seriously though - you could spend the £630 on a few days in beautiful derbyshire ;D and take me and mrs G to the boozer ;D and still have change left to buy another plane which you'd be able to sharpen really easily |
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Post by dom on Nov 7, 2007 17:23:48 GMT
Oddly I know what Dan is getting at.
Apart from a couple of years apprenticeship I have no formal training, yes I've made money from my work but somehow I feel I should have learned more.
Little bit like the idiot who had enough O and A levels to go to university but didn't.
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Post by royclarke on Nov 7, 2007 18:10:57 GMT
Is there any way to stop these animated avatars? They are fairly naff anyway IMO, and Andy's is positively dreadful.
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Post by davyowen on Nov 7, 2007 18:23:10 GMT
You can block images from loading from certain websites with firefox but that will effect any image. An easier solution is to just not look at the left hand side of the screen ;D To block images with firefox click on the 'Tools' option at the top of the screen and select 'Options'   |
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Post by engineerone on Nov 7, 2007 18:25:02 GMT
i too would like to go on one of DC's courses. but i think to do so requires a different mind set. you are not just going to learn to sharpen, you are going to learn about a different way to look at your hand tools. i agree that the most important thing is to organise your ability to sharpen, but i think you have to start from a little higher up than ground zero. whilst i do not agree with jacob about his obsession with the oilstone, it does have some value. the important thing is to understand what you are intending to make. for site work, and first and second fix, then super sharpening is not really for you. however if you intend to expand into "proper cabinetmaking" then really sharp tools do earn their living, and it is worth looking at learning from someone. maybe the way to start is get the missus to obtain a couple of the dvd's or books and see what that does, you might, like me find a eureka moment, and discover why you have not been able to do it in the past. none of us wish to deprive dc of any income, but it is a process and i am not sure that you are presently in the process of needing to spend nearly 2 grand. as has been said earlier, buy a couple of better quality planes and a set of decent chisels, then decide on either an oilstone or waterstones, and set about it. initially i would suggest using a guied, until you get more confident. you also need some leather and maybe some autosol or similar to polish the side opposite the bevel. done carefully and with a little enjoyment, you will find that often the major problem is the fact that you have not in the past properly gotten rid of the "wire edge" which rolls over when you attack the bevel. rubbing your finger along the back will tell you lots. hope this also helps paul |
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Post by timberman on Nov 7, 2007 19:06:44 GMT
After years of making a reasonable living from my woodworking using mainly power tools and machinery I'm beginning to feel that something is missing. Whenever I have had to use a chisel or my block plane (the only plane I own) I have always been struck by how much hard work it is - and immediately reach for a router, multimaster, or ROS. In a 'road to Damascus' moment though, I have realised the problem - I'm crap at sharpening blades! It's my birthday comong up and my missus has promised me whatever I want. I've asked for a week's course in sharpening tools with David Charlesworth. £630!!! She's happy for me to go - the thing is, will it be worth it? Bearing in mind I'll be losing a grand's wages while I'm away. Has anybody been on one of his courses? Will a pro get anything out of it or are they strictly for hobby guys? I'm aware that Mr C is a member here so your comments are very welcome too, David. Rgds Dan Dan, no offense, but you need to get out more ;D ;D and not on a course sharpening tools. Or if you must buy a dvd (sharpening)get some beer in and have nights in front of the telly ;D. |
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TonyW
Full Member
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Post by TonyW on Nov 7, 2007 19:15:41 GMT
Is there any way to stop these animated avatars? They are fairly naff anyway IMO, and Andy's is positively dreadful. Cheeky devil spent ages looking for mine ;D ;D I have just been watching Davids DVD Advanced Hand Planing and am looking forward to getting the rest of the series. I am relatively new to using hand tools and the depth of knowledge passed on in this series has been a revelation. With your experience of woodworking maybe buying these would be of some interest. Cheers ;D Tony |
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Post by paulchapman on Nov 7, 2007 19:24:53 GMT
Is that bit blunt, Tony  You've been drilling that hole for weeks now...... Hat, coat,  |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 7, 2007 19:32:01 GMT
snip whilst i do not agree with jacob about his obsession with the oilstone, it does have some value. the important thing is to understand what you are intending to make. for site work, and first and second fix, then super sharpening is not really for you. however if you intend to expand into "proper cabinetmaking" then really sharp tools do earn their living, and it is worth looking at learning from someone. snip It's not my obsession - it's the norm. It's the only sharpening ever mentioned in nearly all the old books -(+ grindstone if you have one). As far as is known it's what was used by all the old cabinet makers Chippendale et al. It's in all the textbooks - not much detail as it's taken for granted as one of the simplest things you have to learn. The obsession is new; what I call Crazy Sharpening, which involves buying lotsa tackle, loadsa dvds or books, magazines, going on courses and generally making an issue out of something easy and simple. It doesn't take long to learn the basics - 20 minutes or so, but it takes a bit of practice to get really good at it, as with all things woodworking. Technically about a difficult as sharpening a pencil, but takes a bit longer and a bit more effort ;D cheers Jacob PS Dantovey - how are you sharpening your chisels and block plane? What's going wrong I wonder |
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TonyW
Full Member
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Post by TonyW on Nov 7, 2007 19:42:15 GMT
Is that bit blunt, Tony You've been drilling that hole for weeks now...... Hat, coat, Hi Paul, it probably is blunt by now - this is a really hard piece of wood and a very soft bit  . On another forum far far away it was pointed out that the original was a left handed brace and bit and rotating in the wrong direction.  Cheers ;D Tony |
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Post by paulchapman on Nov 7, 2007 19:48:40 GMT
Aren't these smilies great ;D ;D
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Post by paulchapman on Nov 7, 2007 20:06:01 GMT
when I was alad one of my old bosses once took me aside and spent 15minutes showing me how to sharpen a pencil. You sound a bit like my daughter, Amy. One day when my wife went to collect her from playschool, one of the teachers proudly announced that she had spent the whole morning with Amy and finally taught her how to write her name. My wife didn't have the heart to tell her that Amy had been able to write her name for a year. Amy just winked ;D ;D Cheers Paul |
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Post by engineerone on Nov 7, 2007 20:24:00 GMT
i would guess that these days, we would all be banned from sharpening a pencil in the way my dad used to. when working out in a graveyard, and laying out an inscription on a stone, his pencil would wear out quickly so he then would use a pen knife. think about the elf and safety now, alone, in a graveyard, no mobiles in those days, and using a sharp, repeat it, sharp penknife, he might have cut himself and bled to death. mind you i have had a licence for driving a fork lift, and a mate got one for driving a lift ;D as for jacob, thing is, if oilstones were so good, why have people always sought different methods??? interesting to note that the chisels i had inherited from my dad, were all polished on the back, and had a double bevel. all were over 40 years old. paul |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 7, 2007 20:24:54 GMT
Technically about a difficult as sharpening a pencil, but takes a bit longer and a bit more effort ;D when I was alad one of my old bosses once took me aside and spent 15minutes showing me how to sharpen a pencil. Yes I suppose a pencil does take longer than a chisel come to think, if you do it properly that is. ;D cheers Jacob |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Nov 7, 2007 20:34:31 GMT
snip as for jacob, thing is, if oilstones were so good, why have people always sought different methods??? snip Could be a long answer coming up but I'm off down the road to the Rising Sun in a minute. Briefly - its impatience, leading to buying "easy ways" such as honing jigs, which aren't easy at all. But once you go that way it's difficult to get back to reality - you are still back to square one if you try freehand, however long you've been fiddling with jigs n gadgets. They haven't "always sought different methods" - Crazy Sharpening is a recent invention. And there is a lot of commercial pressure . Part of the prob is that few of us, professional or amateur, come from a continuous background of woodwork and we've had to learn a lot for ourselves. cheers Jacob |
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Post by jfc on Nov 7, 2007 21:03:53 GMT
I'd never heard of any other way of sharpening , it was always an oil stone untill about ten years ago or less . Maybe it's because im still young ;D
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Post by dom on Nov 7, 2007 21:06:51 GMT
Started with oilstone, tried a Tormek, couldn't get on with it, back to oilstone, got sick of the mess and now use diamond stone, excellent.
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Post by engineerone on Nov 7, 2007 21:13:11 GMT
couple of extra thoughts jacob. you make much of your success with the oilstone, however i would remind you that less than six months ago, you revealed in another place how you had suddenly found the ability to get a better edge using an oilstone tha you had before. thing is you had used oilstones for a long time, then had a new thought process, and discovered what was for you a better way, although using the same item. the japanese have been using waterstones for centuries, and have since medieval times been using and producing better steel than we in the west. once we lost the middle east/damascus to the turkish empire and its heirs, we lost the ability to make damascene steel, which like japanese steel was made by folding and heat re-forging to get different layers, and different characteristics in the same length of steel. however even then, people over here were using water stones rather than oilstones, since oil was not that easily and widely available. also it was only with the introduction of bessemer vessels and siemens open hearth type furnaces did steel become more widely and cheaply available for work a day items. i must check when oilstones became widely available, but i would guess not until the end of the 18th century. so what happened before then, for instance what did the egyptian use, or the early chinese, let alone the vikings etc. anyway as usual i digress. the important thing is that if you are new to a skill, and have to learn it yourself, you will by the very nature of man waste a bundle learning about it, whereas, if you can watch and be taught, you are likely to find a method which works and stick with it. coming from a metal working/engineering background, i learnt to sharpen and polish many tools using emery cloth/ paper, which are pretty difficult to find these days.it would not have occured to me to use sand paper, since i did not think it strong enough to impact on metal, but i can understand that a guy in the middle of no where, having broken his oil or other stone was left with blunt tools, and thought why not try. thence commeth scary sharp. paul who is not off to the rising sun  |
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;D
Where's Mr Grimsdale and Richard Jones ;D
. On another forum far far away it was pointed out that the original was a left handed brace and bit and rotating in the wrong direction. 
