Hand tools only

[craigmarshall]

On the "other" forum, I remember reading a post that listed a handful of people that use hand tools exclusively for their woodworking. Is it possible to do things this way and still get paid enough (just enough is fine!) for rent and food etc?

I am currently learning all the machine techniques by working with a joiner who has all the kit and loads of room... Now, he earns plenty of money, I'd be content with half what he earns, but he insists that hand-tools just aren't fast enough nowadays. I don't find relying on machines very pleasant or satisfying though.

Ideally, I'd like to build freestanding pieces of cabinetry and furniture from solid woods such as oak, ash, cherry, etc. I want to learn how to prepare this stock by hand, and cut traditional joints by hand, and I want never to have to use a piece of MDF or power sanders again!

I'd very much like to hear from others with the same dream that either have tried and failed to make this work, or haven't yet had the courage to try but might one day, or have tried and succeeded!

So, the overall message I'm getting is that hand tools aren't good enough or fast enough, and no-one cares about traditional materials or techniques any more... Unless you're an antique restorer, which sadly doesn't interest me much.

Is this what everyone thinks? i.e. Am I dreaming?

Hopefully not,
Craig

[paulchapman]

Hi Craig,

I'm only a hobby worker but I'll give you my views for what they are worth. I am one of those who uses mainly hand tools because, at the moment, I can't afford a P/T, saw bench and bandsaw. I do all my prep work with a variety of planes and other hand tools (including a router, biscuit jointer and jig saw). It's very satisfying but if you want to earn a living doing it this way, I'd say forget it.

It's hard work and takes forever. If you factored in your time, nobody would be able to afford your stuff.

I'm making an oak table at the moment for the competition on the other forum. It's taking ages. Dom or Senior, with their machines, would have had it finished inside a week ;D

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

[Alf]

I don't think it's that no one cares about traditional etc, it's just that not enough folks with the money know the difference and will pay for it. I would guess that the only way to make a living just using hand tools is possibly to make something you can only make with hand tools. To me it says a lot that even John Brown, luddite #1 and Welsh Stick Chair maker, still used a bandsaw in order to make a living at it.

Anyway, welcome, Craig; glad you found us.

Cheers, Alf

[joe]

I used to repair/restore furniture up until '91 and used mainly hand tools. which included a tailed router.
Whilst there was no need for a PT or Table saw, I found I couldn't do without the bandsaw.

You will find time is the one tool you wont have enough of, so you will have to compromise along the way.

[paulchapman]

One other thought, Craig. Try to borrow (it's out of print now) "Cabinet Making - the Professional Approach" by Alan Peters. One of the best woodworking books I've ever read and, in my view, essential reading for anyone wanting to do cabinet making for a living. Not your average woodworking book - he talks about how to do it for a living and covers all the business aspects.

Cheers

Paul

[seanybaby]

paulchapman said:

Try to borrow (it's out of print now) "Cabinet Making - the Professional Approach" by Alan Peters.

You can buy it second hand from various people on Amazon starting from the bargain price of only £89!!!!!

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/085442024X/ref=dp_olp_3/203-9124885-6891107?ie=UTF8&qid=1193128352&sr=8-1

[craigmarshall]

paulchapman said:

One other thought, Craig. Try to borrow (it's out of print now) "Cabinet Making - the Professional Approach" by Alan Peters. One of the best woodworking books I've ever read and, in my view, essential reading for anyone wanting to do cabinet making for a living. Not your average woodworking book - he talks about how to do it for a living and covers all the business aspects.

Ah - Alan Peters, I suppose the same chap that did a foreword or edited the latest copy of the Joyce book? Interesting, but at £89 or more, I don't reckon I'll get near a copy for a while...

Thanks for the recommendation.

Craig

[craigmarshall]

paulchapman said:

It's hard work and takes forever. If you factored in your time, nobody would be able to afford your stuff.

Hmm. So - the next step is for me to decide how few machines I can get away with using.

toobyefore said:

To me it says a lot that even John Brown, luddite #1 and Welsh Stick Chair maker, still used a bandsaw in order to make a living at it.

Anyway, welcome, Craig; glad you found us.

Thanks Alf (I like your blog by the way, it's interesting and very amusing.)

I'm currently working with a joiner/furniture maker and almost everything we do is joined using dowels or biscuits. And lots of things seem to involve MDF. I suppose if I can at least get away from those bits (which I dislike), and more towards traditional joints and "real" woods etc., I will be happier. Surely you can do that and still make a living?

I still want to know how to prepare stuff by hand, and I want to get comfortable using hand tools for things, but it looks like I'll have to accept using machines at least some of the time if I want to do it for myself and make a living.

Thanks for your advice folks.

Craig

[paulchapman]

craigmarshall said:

Ah - Alan Peters, I suppose the same chap that did a foreword or edited the latest copy of the Joyce book? Interesting, but at £89 or more, I don't reckon I'll get near a copy for a while...

Yes, that's the bloke. You should be able to borrow one from a library and they could even photocopy bits as long as it's for your own use.

I think the main point about using hand tools for things like stock preparation, is that it will eat, in a massive way, into your time, costs and profit margins for no added value. Just preparing the wood from sawn to planed using hand tools will add several hundreds or thousands to the cost of your work (depending on the size of the piece) - although it will do wonders for your cardio-respiratory system I would save hand tools for things that would add value, like hand-cut dovetails, where the customer can see what he's getting for his money.

Cheers

Paul

[nickw]

But do most customers really appreciate hand made dovetails? Rob Coman's rueful comments on this subject on his Wood-Hinge Box DVD are quite telling I think.

[paulchapman]

nickw said:

But do most customers really appreciate hand made dovetails?

Probably not, which is why it's best to forget about romantic notions of how it was done in the good old days and concentrate on getting the money in

Cheers

Paul

[robo]

It's a nice dream but I think you will struggle financially until you get a "reputation" for quality work that people are prepared to pay for. If you charge your time realistically it will be expensive stuff?

You will probably have to get some machinery unless you are prepared to work only on pre-planed timber.
You can get away with a hand saw for a while (to cut things down to a manageable size?) but will eventually need a P/T and a Bandsaw and then ...........??

R.

[engineerone]

like everybody else i need to deflate our hopeful balloon.

it is certainly important to be able to do things by hand, so you can then work out more efficient but strong ways to do things.

if you only have machinery experience, you can easily underestimate what is necessary, whereas with hand experience as well you understand more, not least about the wood.

what you have to do is obtain a reputation that invites people to contact you. until that time you will have to do what everybody else does, use man made boards and mechanical joints. there is nothing wrong with this, it is another technique.

the important thing is to look for something that you can make now that is relatively unique, and establish a reputation for making such a thing.

basically the thing you have to think about is that you would need lets say 300 quid take home. to obtain that you need to gross about a grand, because of the overheads, and material costs, what can you make within 20-30 hours that would enable you to sell it at that price?

it's scary but true :

planing by hand is time consuming, and the customer will rarely notice, cause they do not know what they are supposed to be looking for.

making some joints by hand may be worthwhile, say dovetails on drawer fronts, but so many are hidden, so it is not worth the effort. it is easier i think to add other details that will offer more return for less investment in time and effort.

so look for something that people will buy, at a price you can make it for, and see whether that is what you want to do.

paul

[craigmarshall]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I realise now it's not just my colleague/boss being difficult and anti-traditional... :-)

I really just need to experiment now and see how long projects take with the joinery and finishing done with hand tools, and the rough sizing and preparation done with machinery. I'm sure I'll find a mix that will keep me happy and keep enough money coming in! I'm already doing this, in fact, I'm making a bedside cabinet for my wife, I've used p/t, mitre saw, festool saw, biscuiter to get the panels to size, but I'm doing through tenons for the carcase, and I'm having a go at cutting them by hand. I also plan to do hand-dovetailed drawers, but we'll see whether a mess I make of the tenons first! :-) I'm trying to get away from the dowel jointing machine and MDF as a first step...

I gave up IT work in March to come to wood working and do something more hands on and satisfying (what could be less technology-driven than working with wood? Har-dee-har.) I don't much like working amongst the noise and dust and using potentially poisonous materials (mdf) and potentially limb-removing machines, nevermind the cost of it all... Wish me luck!

As I said before, hopefully none of this will stop me learning how to do things the old-fashioned way, whether I can go on to make money doing it the old way seems less and less likely. But nevermind, the output should be just as good.

Thanks again,
Craig

[dom]

Hi Craig, I initially started with your ideals, except I was going to use machinery.
No piece of MDF was going to darken my doors
It did and still does.
Only now, after a good number of years and building a portfolio of clients am I able to pick and choose.
My advice, get yourself a good reputation first and learn as you go.

Dom

[dirtydeeds]

im a carpenter, hand tools only, youd never make a living

you have to use power tools and nail guns to be competative.







nobody can afford hand cut hidden dovetail mitre joints on their skirting

[dantovey]

I think you could go part-way there. Making joints, assembling componants, scraping, sanding and finishing are all things that can be done by hand almost as quickly as with machines. You could also make a living by using only solid wood.

However, for preparing timber and componants, forget it!

How are you going to rip a plank of oak to size without a table saw or bandsaw?

How are you going to produce 36 identical drawer rails without a planer/thicknesser?

Yes, you could do it, but you'd starve in the process!

Speaking of which, I'd better stop playing on my computer and get back to work!

Dan.

[mikew]

A working shop when starting out usually has a wide, varied book of work. For that reason, it would be difficult to be a hand tool only shop.

However, that doesn't mean that for solid wood work that hand tools cannot be used primarily for the commissions that are high-dollar. Primarily here means initial stock dimensioning with only a band saw. I've done it. A large, well set up band saw will get dimensions close enough for surfacing with planes.

Other types of work, though, will include kitchens and larger built-ins using man-made materials. And there will be solid work that is low paying--do them as quickly as possible using different construction techniques than the high paying solid work.

One does not know where the flow of work will come from for the first several years. So a well fitted out shop (or buy machinery as you go) is nearly a must. One problem of that is unless you have built up the machinery while you are working for someone else, your commissions will always seem to go for the next job on the book as regards some new widget.

But for solid wood furniture that pays well? There isn't much difference in time if you are using traditional building techniques. That is, as long as you have the large band saw for processing timber.

My arbitrary distinction of when to use which means (power/hand) depended simply on the materials needed for the bulk of the job. That said, on the solid wood bits like drawer fronts, rails/stiles, etc., I still used hand planes as the final pass over planer/thicknesser prep. Drawer sides and shelving were simply sanded straight off the machines (usually on the wide belt or the drum sanders).

Take care, Mike

[Scrit]

Hi Craig

I think I'd agree with the sentiment that it's not that people don't care about tradition - it's just that they won't pay for it.

But, hold on though. Are you aware exactly how long machinery has been used in workshops? The first automated woodworking shop was installed at the Royal Naval Dockyards in Chatham during the Napoleonic Wars (by Marc Brunel, Iasmbard Kingdom's dad no less) and it was common for larger joinery and furniture shops to have a degree of automation in the form of planers, thicknessers, drilling machines and bandsaws well before the turm of the 20th Century. The skilled manpower shortages during and after WWI brought about the widespread automation of even smaller shops, so you have to really go back 70 or more years to find "true" hand woodworking shops making a living at it in the UK

Could one make a living at it today, though? Personally, with the exception of a few areas, such as veneering or carving, I sincerely doubt that it would be possible to do without machines and/or power tools, especially as you also need to make enough money to cover workshop rent, lighting, heating, insurance, vehicle, etc (all of which add up to a considerable extra overhead)

By all means learn how to prepare stock by hand - any self-respecting tradesman needs to do this in order to be able to use machines sensibly - but consider using machines to do the drudge work, namely planing, edging, thicknessing, rip sawing, crosscutting, etc and leave the hand tools to take the finish cuts. It is really no fun to turn yourself into an underpaid drudge just in order to try satisfying an (unrealistic) dream. You know, having re-read that I think that Morris and the Arts & Crafts brigade with their wholly unworldly attitudes have had a lasting (and damaging) impact on the psyche of the English middle classes - at least in so far as their attitudes to "hand made" stuff goes

I'm not anti-traditional, but I understand from a personal perspective the need to earn a reasonable wage. For this reason I now use devices such as rotary lasers, cordless guns/pinners, impact drivers, etc which I would have eschewed a few years back. Am I wrong to use technology to take potential inaccuracy and drudgery out of a task? No. I'm a pragmatist with a need to earn a living wage

mikew said:

But for solid wood furniture that pays well? There isn't much difference in time if you are using traditional building techniques. That is, as long as you have the large band saw for processing timber.

Maybe so, although for chairmaking a morticer will speed up making the joints sufficiently to make it worth having. One of the problems we face in this crowded little island is that premises (by American standards) can cost a King's Ransom to rent unless you are lucky enough to own your own workshop, mortgage paid. Most of us don't and so are driven to being wage slaves.....

What would I regard as "the bare minimum", then? A rip saw or a decent size bandsaw, a 9in planer, a 10 x 6in thicknesser, a chisel mortiser, a 1/2in router, a random orbit sander and a kettle Get those and use the hand tools for finishing and you'll struggle just a little less and be nearer to your goal of designing and making the end product. And after all isn't it the end product which you are striving to make and not just the shavings?

Scrit

[craigmarshall]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

I knew it would be difficult, but before this thread, I didn't quite realise it'd be impossible. I see now that I've got to get myself a proper work space and get kitted out with bandsaw, planer, thicknesser before I can realistically make money (or make a realistic amount of money, if you want).

I have a kind of prejudice in my head, and I don't quite know how it got there, that machinery and powered tools are kind of cheating. But they're not, they're just the way things are done now. Just like you wouldn't walk to work and back 20 miles each way every day instead of getting in the car or on a bus. Yes - you could do it, but could you afford to? Yes - I think I get it now.

I still desperately cling to the hope that I can develop my skills to the point where I can actually do all the precision hand tool stuff if I want to. Just can't let myself forget that machines are a necessary evil.

Well - that or go back to IT, and do this stuff as a hobby...

Thanks again (and thanks for the history lesson Scrit!),
Craig

PS: The kettle is for steaming dents out of wood, right? Or a cup of tea every couple of hours ? ;-)

[Scrit]

craigmarshall said:

PS: The kettle is for steaming dents out of wood, right? Or a cup of tea every couple of hours ? ;-)

That, and boiling water to make-up dyes (e.g. van Dyke brown), hide glue, etc. Essential piece of kit!

[mrgrimsdale]

The big divide for me comes not between machine or hand tools, but at the point where the machine dictates what and how you do things. So for instance a spindle moulder can do everything in the way of mouldings, rebates, etc but better and faster than by hand so there is no compromise.
But a router is really limited as you have to buy off the peg cutters and there just isn't the choice, if you are doing trad work like me. So except for the occasional slot a router is useless unless I want to do things the router way and produce crude and clunky mouldings which you can spot from a mile off.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

craig, you could think more laterally though.

you are ex it, so why not make items for that industry?

recently i saw a wooden desk which had the computer built in
i have also seen wooden briefcases for lap tops

a lot of people make a living it would seem by making cabinets for speakers. so why not look for products in the business you know?? IT, and see what could be made attractive and saleable in wood. with your contacts, you might after making a couple of samples, be able to find some outlets and make decent money.

people spend bundles on "the latest" it, so can you make something attractive that people might buy. for instance, initially how about a clever storage facility for cd's,dvd's, storage sticks
etc. a lot of people have it in their living rooms so would be happy to have more attractive items.

in particular there will i think be a growing market for products aimed at women to use in their home.

anyway just my personal 2c's.

use the skills you already have, and combine with the connections you already have to offer something special.

paul

[fingers55]

Scrit - excellent, tho' no often a mere mortal can pick you up on something:

.....'The first automated woodworking shop was installed at the Royal Naval Dockyards in Chatham during the Napoleonic Wars'

If memory serves, the workshop was at Portsmouth dockyard making ships blocks. Standing by for a cyberslap if wrong tho' ;D - Rob

[Scrit]

fingers55 said:

Scrit - excellent, tho' no often a mere mortal can pick you up on something:

.....'The first automated woodworking shop was installed at the Royal Naval Dockyards in Chatham during the Napoleonic Wars'

You are, of course, correct. I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't for the fact that I've put together a short article about the self same subject (where I did check my facts and I did get it right) . Just goes to show that I am (barely) human, after all! ;D A temporary mental abberation...... ......my legs are old, my back is bent, my brain is knackered (to paraphrase, or no, the innkeeper in Life of Brian)