Hand tools only

[engineerone]

marc patented a up dated form of the block to allow sails etc to be raised more quickly, and as you say, more importantly, his
design was such that the whole process could be done by a set of machines. obviously this had major impact since now all the parts were standard, and a ship could carry spares for the first time, rather than having to re make one every time a failure occurred.

considering how old fashioned the admiralty was it is surprising that a french immigrant should have been able to obtain such a commission. the economics must have been pretty impressive.

i too thought one of the shops was installed at chatham, or was that the first mechanised rope makers within the chandlery, .

thank god for the development of the whitworth threads and the lathe in the earlier part of the 18th century.

where would woodworking machines be without that simple tool

paul

[fingers55]

Paul the E wrote:
'...at chatham, or was that the first mechanised rope makers within the chandlery'

Having seen a programme on the telly recently, I seem to recollect that the rope making facility was at Chatham and I believe still exists to this day - Rob

[dirtydeeds]

i went to france many years ago and saw a sign for the "cordiage" or something like that

i knew what it was from the name, it was a rope factory (no doubt we had the same)

i spent some time there and also learned that due to a lack of suitable timbers the french learned how to laminate spars and masts

the french had technology and we learned from them, that sort of knowledge is not wasted by the navy or the military


the same thing happend after the second world war. german scientists and scientific knowlege sent american rockets to the moon

[mrgrimsdale]

mrgrimsdale said:

The big divide for me comes not between machine or hand tools, but at the point where the machine dictates what and how you do things. So for instance a spindle moulder can do everything in the way of mouldings, rebates, etc but better and faster than by hand so there is no compromise.
But a router is really limited as you have to buy off the peg cutters and there just isn't the choice, if you are doing trad work like me. So except for the occasional slot a router is useless unless I want to do things the router way and produce crude and clunky mouldings which you can spot from a mile off.

cheers
Jacob

And the other big divide is independence; the big attraction of woodwork hand tools is that with only a few it's possible to do just about everything. And those few will last for life with a bit of care. Even mouldings is not a prob in that they can be omitted if you haven't the kit, and put bevels in instead.
If you read the mags and catalogues you could easily think that almost every job requires a special tool - this is completely untrue.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

interesting dirty, i would remind you though about many of the problems that occurred within our naval past because of how bigotted the admiralty chiefs were.

for instance the whole story about chronometers and latitude.
later in churchill's time the delays in converting from coal to oil.

i wonder whether the term cordwainer comes from rope making??

interesting discussion though.

paul

[fingers55]

engineerone said:

interesting dirty, i would remind you though about many of the problems that occurred within our naval past because of how bigotted the admiralty chiefs were.

for instance the whole story about chronometers and latitude.
later in churchill's time the delays in converting from coal to oil.

i wonder whether the term cordwainer comes from rope making??

interesting discussion though.

paul

Yet if you come forward to WW2, just prior to D-Day the 'powers that be' commissioned Maj Gen Hobart of the 79th ArmdDiv to come up with a whole series of special vehicles (nicknamed 'funnies') one example was a rotating flail fixed to the business end of a Sherman tank, used to clear a path thru' minefields. It's reckoned that these odd vehicles saved thousands of British lives during the invasion. However...our 'colonial cousins' thought that the Brits were completely barking and refused to use these vehicles during the invasion and suffered accordingly.
Lots of other examples where the military used clever and devious tactics, but that still doesn't condone some of the dreadful c*ck ups made at the time...and which are still being made - Rob

[Scrit]

mrgrimsdale said:

If you read the mags and catalogues you could easily think that almost every job requires a special tool - this is completely untrue.

That's very true, but one task I had to do today was to prep a couple of 10-1/2ft pillasters for installation against an existing reveal around an opening and which will have panels inserted on one edge and just for good measure there's a 7ft scribe down one side and the two pillaster faces have got to be in alignment over a 12ft opening. The "specialist" equipment I used included a biscuit jointer, a plunge router with 10mm bit, a chamfer plane and paring chisel (for the joint edges) and a slew of measuring gear including a laser line. The job would have been possible without these, but it would have taken about 3 times as long IMHO. I agree, though, that catalogues like Rutlands, Tilgear, APTC and Lee Valley contains loads of "eye candy", but I find myself looking at all purchases critically and asking myself what the payback period is - I've bought to many tools in the past which have been used on one project then never used again!

Scrit

[dom]

Scrit wrote:

I agree, though, that catalogues like Rutlands, Tilgear, APTC and Lee Valley contains loads of "eye candy", but I find myself looking at all purchases critically and asking myself what the payback period is - I've bought to many tools in the past which have been used on one project then never used again!

Couldn't agree more.
To anyone just starting out, unless you're a collector, think before buying that new tool, can I do this another way do I really need this shiny new tool, believe me the money you save will come in useful when you do need that tool.

[engineerone]

i must agree with this set of comments, but there is a major problem for the beginner.

if you lurk around and look at magazines, they all tell you to use the latest gizmo, because it is the only way.

unless you have had some training, and maybe some practice,
then you do not know your skill level. more importantly when you start, you want to get things finished quickly. you feel you need to produce output, not necessarily quality.

it is only after you have had the time to sit back and look at your output, then decide that you want to get better that you can consider things sensibly.

scrit told me ages ago to remember that unless you understand how things can be made by hand tools it is difficult to properly make them with machines.

i still do not have enough practice with cutting straight and square by hand, but after some tuition from colin c, i do cut in a better way.

planing i find more easy than i did, with practice, but i certainly did not think i would make much of the finishing of the mortices in the top of my table by use of a metal working file

it is easy to watch for instance qvc, and think that will save me hours, but forget that the guy demonstrating has worked with the product for hours or days, and you may never get to repeat his experience.

you have to strike a balance, but the most important thing is as always, always finish whatever you start, and be critical of your abilities, but not too critical, since we all make mistakes and can improve on whatever we do, be it woodwork, metal work, or even at normal work.

paul

[dom]

Well said Paul, it is difficult when starting, hmm, looks like you're all stuffed ;D

Dom

[paulchapman]

I think it's a great pity that they stopped teaching woodwork in schools. Kids used to leave school knowing how to use all the basic tools and cut all the basic joints.

Really showing my age now ;D

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

how can we be stuffed dom, we have you to turn too

you are right also paul, almost everybody of "our generation"
getting towards 60, left school with some basic hand work skills in both wood and metal working.

paul

[colincott]

paulchapman said:

I think it's a great pity that they stopped teaching woodwork in schools. Kids used to leave school knowing how to use all the basic tools and cut all the basic joints.

Really showing my age now ;D

Cheers

Paul

Paul

I am 40 in January and we had woodwork and metall work at school but I think it was not to long after leaving school that they started to stop it

[mrgrimsdale]

I did woodwork at school in the 2nd form (1956 ish, I'm older than I look). Took a year to make 1 egg rack and 1 letter rack. With hindsight I realise that we were being taught the strict, proper, efficient, orthodox traditional way of doing things, which I only rediscovered much later in life - no thanks at all to the woodwork media or well known woodwork guru books. I stopped buying mags altogether when I realised how badly served I had been, and binned tons of the b**gers!
Someone slipped me a copy of British Woodw**king recently - nothing's changed!
(Apologies to the few excellent woodwork writers who do get into print - don't take offence like the last time and get me banned again!)

cheers
Jacob

[dunbarhamlin]

Did a year (60 hours?) of woodwork at school in the mid 70s - a toy tank and a dodgy coffee table were enough to put me off for 30 years.
Likewise, an occasional foggy memory pops up, which makes me realise it was an opportunity missed.

Cheers
Steve

[robo]

I have an "O" level in Woodwork & Metalwork (Gloat!) so I must have done it for a few years in the 50's at school - my memory dims.
My Mum has still got most of the things I made inc. a mahogony coffee table and a toasting fork - I suppose a very useful device in those days?!
A few bowls and a metal set square which I still have. No power tools were used except for the lathe as I remember?

R.

[fingers55]

When I left teaching in '98 I 'spose I was one of the last of the 'old school' woodwork teachers, tho' what I taught was gradually going the way of so called 'technology' or 'design and technology' for what it's worth, which is not a lot in my book. When I started in the late 70's there was certainly a very strong woodwork, metalwork and td dept that taught all the stuff that we take for granted... correct use of hand tools, jointing etc. Power tools were not used simply because of H&S reasons, so anything that needed to be done with say, a router I had to do on the individuals project. Like everything else the use of solid timber gave way to the widespread use of mdf...I remember one Yr 11 girl doing some sanding with the stuff surrounded by a dense cloud of dust. I also vividly remember at my first school one youf who told Bob Bunyon to 'foxtrot oscar' when he was standing just inside the mw double doors....now Bob was as broad as he was tall and he picked up said youf 2' off the ground by the lapels, propelled him thru' the double doors into the corridor, then across the corridor, still airborne, until he smacked his head against the opposite wall....Bob then inquired of the youf in question if he'd like to repeat what he'd just said
Happy days...glad I'm out of now tho' ;D - Rob

[engineerone]

did he offer to make the lad pay for the flying lessons ;D ;D

sad thing is these days he would have been off to the funny farm without and tea and biscuits.

bet the kid didn't do it again though

paul

[fingers55]

Another good one I remember was when I was in the td room with the teacher taking the class. Digital watches had just become fashionable and Leyton didn't take a fancy to them so when one started to beep in his totally silent lesson, the youf was summoned to the front desk and required to drop the offending article into a plain brown envelope. At the end of the lesson, the offending student was called to the front desk. Leyton then extracted the envelope and from the another drawer....a very large forge hammer, which he smashed down onto the envelope in front of the boy. He then proceeded to tip out a whole load of tinkly broken watch parts and then explained in a very quiet Welsh lilting voice that he didn't much care for these new watches and he hadn't better bring one into class again, had he?
As the by now ashen faced youf filed out the door, Leyton with a big ;D on his face silently gave him the original envelope with his watch still inside...Wicked ;D - Rob

[houtslager]

In days long long ago, I had the pleasure of also doing "O" level in Woodwork and metal work plus "O" level TD. As I got these, I was then told to take the new exam for "A" level - Design and Technology. There were 5 of us in my school that year that took this exam.

Our metal work teacher was a grunt of a man, who was building a replica Ford Model T which as a senior students we were allowed to make various bits and pieces for it
The woodworking teacher was an ex engineer - go figure that out
Well for my exam piece I designed a Snowboard, only to find out on Tomorrow's World later a Canadian had done the same but was at least a year ahead
We were damn lucky to have learned from experienced trades people who went up in their relevent trade only to be bolloxed by the system, thereby came into the education system.
They taught us how to THINK and then how to use the hand tools at the time, and later some of the machinery too

HS, pulling my hair out due to veneer problem on an 1850's sofa table.

[colincott]

houtslager said:

HS, pulling my hair out due to veneer problem on an 1850's sofa table.

Can I help with the problem?

Old problem new head thing

[jfc]

But a router is really limited as you have to buy off the peg cutters and there just isn't the choice, if you are doing trad work like me. So except for the occasional slot a router is useless unless I want to do things the router way and produce crude and clunky mouldings which you can spot from a mile off.

Oh i dont know

[mrgrimsdale]

jfc said:

But a router is really limited as you have to buy off the peg cutters and there just isn't the choice, if you are doing trad work like me. So except for the occasional slot a router is useless unless I want to do things the router way and produce crude and clunky mouldings which you can spot from a mile off.

Oh i dont know
snip

Oooh is that the legacy? How would it do on little glazing bars etc, say you had 80 to do at about 14mm thick with fine mouldings, rebates etc.
How does it work in other words

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Not a patch on the spindle moulder but it could do it the same as a router in a table . The legacy just does it overhead rather than inverted . I suppose it goes in stages , you can do it buy hand , you can do it with a router and you can do it with a spindle moulder with power feed . I'm glad i have the spindle moulder now but i never turned away a moulding when i just had the router no matter what it was .

[darrenw]

craigmarshall said:

I have a kind of prejudice in my head, and I don't quite know how it got there, that machinery and powered tools are kind of cheating. But they're not, they're just the way things are done now.

I also started with this view, but after doing everything by hand, especially stock preparation you soon realise why the pros use all the machines. As a hobbiest I still go for the hand tool approach.

1) Its a good work out
2) Its quieter for the neigbours (don't want to get meself an ASBO)
3) I'm not trying to make money out of it.

Cheers

Darren

PS: This is where you have all disappeared to. Nice to see all the usual suspects again.