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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2007 12:44:43 GMT
Just thumbing through this after postie dropped it off and what is new?
The new Veritas Plough plane for £133.95 and set of 4 blades £49.95
Do you peeps reckon tis just a big name firm hoping to suck us in ?
I have a few Veritas planes and they are excellent but that Plough plane looks like a miserable sod. Cant understand why they didn't model after the Record 50 or 405, one would be able to T&G and bead etc.
A couple of pages further on the Anant multi is priced at £139.95.
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Oct 23, 2007 13:31:32 GMT
Just thumbing through this after postie dropped it off and what is new? The new Veritas Plough plane for £133.95 and set of 4 blades £49.95 Do you peeps reckon tis just a big name firm hoping to suck us in ? snip Well of course it is thats what it's all about with expensive toolmakers - no doubt the tools are (mostly) excellent but nobody really needs them.  Think of the wood you could buy  . It's a tradition - they all do it from way back - inventing or re-inventing a huge collection of tools and gadgets in the hopes that some prat somewhere will buy them. They even re-introduce archaic tools which were abandoned in the first place cos they were useless. The biggest con is the way they convince people that every new task needs a new special tool such as the vast plane collection nowadays deemed necessary for even simple tasks. Hence the oft repeated question on groups like this "what do I need to buy to do x,y,or z?" Usually the best answer will be "nothing - just get on with it with what you already have". ;D cheers Jacob |
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Post by craigmarshall on Oct 23, 2007 13:40:42 GMT
The biggest con is the way they convince people that every new task needs a new special tool such as the vast plane collection nowadays deemed necessary for even simple tasks. ..snip.. Usually the best answer will be "nothing - just get on with it with what you already have". ;D Assuming I'm thinking of the same tool, how do you cut a groove (for say a drawer bottom) without a plough plane then? I guess you could saw it out with a crosscut tenon saw, if you were patient, or treat it as a huge mortice and chisel it out, but isn't a plough plane the best for the job? Thanks, Craig |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Oct 23, 2007 13:49:28 GMT
The biggest con is the way they convince people that every new task needs a new special tool such as the vast plane collection nowadays deemed necessary for even simple tasks. ..snip.. Usually the best answer will be "nothing - just get on with it with what you already have". ;D Assuming I'm thinking of the same tool, how do you cut a groove (for say a drawer bottom) without a plough plane then? I guess you could saw it out with a crosscut tenon saw, if you were patient, or treat it as a huge mortice and chisel it out, but isn't a plough plane the best for the job? Thanks, Craig Yes but not at £134. If you must buy new I'd go for the Anant £80 - which has more blades, but fewer brass knobs ;D ;D , and no sock Then you have £54 left to spend on wood. cheers Jacob PS just noticed - socks are extra, that's a bit mean ;D PPS drawer bottom groove a bad detail (its old Jim K again!) - better to put in a drawer slip PPS well f me the blades are extra too . Even worse value for money - £104 LEFT TO BUY WOOD WITH. |
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Post by craigmarshall on Oct 23, 2007 14:17:54 GMT
Yes but not at £134. If you must buy new I'd go for the Anant £80 - which has more blades, but fewer brass knobs ;D ;D , and no sock Then you have £54 left to spend on wood. cheers Jacob PS just noticed - socks are extra, that's a bit mean ;D PPS drawer bottom groove a bad detail (its old Jim K again!) - better to put in a drawer slip PPS well f me the blades are extra too . Even worse value for money - £104 LEFT TO BUY WOOD WITH. I see your point now - I thought you were advising him not to get a plough plane and make do with other tools. I would pull my hair out trying to chisel a groove for something like that. I suppose a home made scratch stock is another option. So - I just looked up drawer slips on t'internet, and found out that they are small pieces of wood inserted inside the drawer bottom, but it sounds like they too are grooved, and so would still need a plough plane. I guess you're suggesting using them as a simple shelf though and letting gravity hold the drawer base in place? How would you go about fixing the drawer slips to the sides? I suppose plain old wood glue, but I wondered if there were a better way? I'm only asking because I'll have some drawers to make for a bedside cabinet soon, and would like to do it in a traditional way as far as possible or practical. Cheers, Craig |
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mikew
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Post by mikew on Oct 23, 2007 15:12:41 GMT
First, howdy folks...
On traditional drawer sides, common practice is no groove, bottom slips. Reason is one, cannot reliably groove an 8-10 mm drawer side and have it effective. Two, the thin drawer side needs greater bearing surface on the dust r web frame in order to not wear a groove in it.
On thicker sides, I groove for the drawer bottom (as was common practice) and may or may not use a slip.
In both cases, I generally also use an inner slip to provide a rounded or profiled transition to the drawer in the junction of the sides-bottom.
Both grooved and non-grooved sides are as old as the hills themselves. What I wrote above is how I decide which method to use and sort of why (bearing surface).
As well, frame and panels for everything from boxes to large doors need grooving. If you don't have a plow and vintage prices are not economical, you could do a lot worse than the LV plow.
As for the LV plow itself--haven't used the LV. I suspect it works as well as any of their other tools. But vintage plows...y'all live in the land of milk and honey for them. Whether you get a vintage one or new doesn't really matter...except in the sense that nearly half the plows I have purchased are not usable as is. I suspect the LV is, eh?
Take care, Mike
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Post by paulchapman on Oct 23, 2007 15:35:43 GMT
Welcome, Mike. Good to see you here  Cheers Paul |
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Post by dom on Oct 23, 2007 15:55:31 GMT
Welcome Mike
Dom
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Post by Alf on Oct 23, 2007 16:13:15 GMT
Welcome, Mike.  As it happens I have a Veritas plough en route; actually somewhat tempted to get back in the reviewing saddle 'cos of it. Mike makes good points; we're lucky (for once) in being in the land of Record whence some of the best metal ploughs and combis were made. That plus all the woodies. But they were never cheap new. Plough planes have tended to always be the most expensive plane in a woodworker's kit - but without them you soon find yourself floundering if you're taking the hand tool thing beyond the smoother plane-stage. Deciding between one example or another is a personal thing of course; secondhand you can be lucky, or you can spend the same again on blades or find the darn thing has a wonky skate or some other defect. Hey, it happens and even if it didn't, some people just flat out won't buy secondhand tools anyway. Their loss... Or you can buy cheaper, and Anant ones do give pause for thought, but they're not guaranteed to be ready to use either (Anant blades give processed cheese a run for it's money in terms of hardness). Fact is they're expensive planes to make and wisely or not, I think LV are doing a little water testing with this one before trying something a little more adaptable. Would it have been my choice? Well, maybe save that opinion in case I do decide to review it... Cheers, Alf |
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Post by mooretoolsplease on Oct 23, 2007 19:49:33 GMT
I have a few Veritas tools, all of them have been excellent, one which I really love is their beam compass, superb bit of kit.
This one though, I just cant see enough times when it would be better to use than a power tool
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Post by engineerone on Oct 23, 2007 21:08:26 GMT
howdy mike nice to see you have come across to the dark side ;D  as for ploughs, it is interesting, my stanley is ok, but i must try it with the blades sharpened at a better angle to follow the advice from alf. i did some of the stuff in my coffee table with the plough, and some with the router. both have their problems. part of the problem with grooving with a thin cutter is making sure you reference the cut off the same edge on every piece same for routing though  but the biggest thing is it takes a long time, and produces a lot of shavings, if not dust. like many i prefer to buy modern tools if i can get what i want in the price performance ration and knowing the way rob lee and co work, there must be something that you can only figure when you have the plane in your hands. rather like the lateral screws in the bench planes to make it easier to set the blade square and central across the plane. as for drawers, i am drawn( :-[sorry) to the idea of either NK bottoms, or using the slip as the bearing surface too. a lot depends on what you are making, how much weight do you expect the drawer to carry  ? paul |
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Post by Alf on Oct 24, 2007 8:23:23 GMT
This one though, I just cant see enough times when it would be better to use than a power tool It's a fair enough point, but it depends on the definition of better. Person A may consider the priority for them is to make a groove quickly, but Person B may rate doing it quietly more important. Looking at it another way, from my POV one of those doweller thingies seems a pointless waste of time 'cos dowels are the joint of the devil (imo ) and yet apparently people buy them. My priority is quieter, less messy, traditional joints, so a plough is a must - but a Domino makes my eyes glaze over. vive la difference Cheers, Alf |
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mikew
New Member
Posts: 14
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Post by mikew on Oct 24, 2007 14:41:39 GMT
This one though, I just cant see enough times when it would be better to use than a power tool For me it depends. For the average piece of furniture, there just are not many drawers. Most people I know who have plows and use them, have more than one (it's a disease!). One is typically set for just doing drawer grooves. Even if not, they are quicker to set up than a router. This only applies to through grooves, though. Even when I had a shop with two shapers, a couple router tables and a few other hand-held router set up with edge guides, for furniture using through grooves, I used a plow. For stopped grooves in the shop, we almost always used a router with an edge guide, a 1/4" bit and the edge guide set with the usual offset. For frames, while I usually punched in the mortises with a large PowerMatic mortiser, the grooves were usually run with the plow--but the others in the shop would typically use either the table saw or router table. The plow plane was ultimately faster than the router if the router table needed set up. Fastest was the table saw. On larger units with a lot of drawers, any of the machines were faster overall (large built-ins, kitchens etc). But for average furniture? Nah, its pretty much a wash as regards time. Paul--being that I built a lot of Scandanavian Modern, NK drawers were often used (heck, I've used them on Shaker-styled pieces too--that's evidence of a sick mind!). To do them well, there really isn't much time savings. But I do like building them. Take care, Mike |
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Post by paulchapman on Oct 24, 2007 17:26:19 GMT
Most people I know who have plows and use them, have more than one (it's a disease!). Good point. It is very useful to have more than one plough/combination plane so that they can be set up for specific jobs and not have to keep altering the settings (and yes, it's probably a disease also ;D) Cheers Paul |
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Post by Alf on Oct 24, 2007 18:07:05 GMT
Most people I know who have plows and use them, have more than one (it's a disease!). I resemble that remark... Anyway, the Veritas turned up this afternoon; if only I had been in a position to drop everything and high-tail it to the workshop you wouldn't find me here now telling you that.  Cheers, Alf |
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Post by paulchapman on Oct 24, 2007 18:37:21 GMT
the Veritas turned up this afternoon Looking forward to hearing what you think of it, Alf. Cheers Paul |
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Post by mooretoolsplease on Oct 24, 2007 21:39:41 GMT
I said better for the want of a more suitable word.
I think one of the potential flaws I see in it, is that if I only have to do 2 passes to complete a groove, I see there to be a greater chance of accuracy rather than many passes to achieve the same goal.
I would be interested to see the results of a race between a plane, and a power tool for this, including setup. Very similar to the race between a pedal lathe, and an electric one I saw a few weeks ago
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Post by Steve Hamlin on Oct 26, 2007 11:39:49 GMT
I like my ploughs - especially my Record and Stanley 43s - but to actually fit a groove to the draw bottom (if there aren't too many) a scratch stock is fun and easily adapted to purpose.
Cheers
Steve
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Post by andy king on Oct 26, 2007 11:53:03 GMT
I suppose it's horses for courses really. It can be quicker to set up a plough than a router, especially as you are removing very little material, and they are quite theraputic to use.
The router wins hands down on stopped joints though, that's for sure!
Problem with routing, especially with finer grooves, is the possibility of snapping the cutter.
With a hand held operation, its a matter of pushing and pulling the router the clear the slot as the waste tends to back up in the cut. Inverted in a table it still has the problem but with fingerboards holding the work, its difficult to drag the work back slightly to clear the waste a little, and the bit can snap. I've had this happen to me on a few occasions, both hand held and inverted.
Solid carbide cutters are the best option to minimise this, but the possibity remains.
As mentioned previously, for short runs, a plough is a perfect solution, but for bigger batch runs, the router might be the best bet.
I now tend to use a slotting (biscuit type) cutter to make grooves on the table, so the snapping problem is sorted, but hand held, it can still occur.
Andy
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Post by Sparky on Oct 28, 2007 15:45:56 GMT
Anyway, the Veritas turned up this afternoon. Cheers, Alf REVIEW! REVIEW!  I've been waiting for this review for a long time! Sparky Ps. I'll probably get one anyway but I still love your witty plane reviews |
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Post by Rob Lee on Oct 29, 2007 14:27:50 GMT
Geez - Tough crowd... We make planes 'cause it's fun.. and I like them. Also gives me an excuse to have the company acquire antiques for study, and inspiration... ;D You decide whether you need one - ten - or all... we certainly won't tell you you do. Yep - you can buy the Anant for less - or used at a boot sale... doesn't make ours cost any less - that's the price of manufacturing in North America (or the UK)... 'course we could take our entire range offshore, just as the previously made in the UK Record line was....saay, whatever happened to those tools?  Cheers - Rob (slightly T-I-C) |
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Post by evergreen on Oct 29, 2007 14:53:01 GMT
Rob
It's really good to see you here. Please, just keep making the tools where you do at the moment. It's important to retain at least some manufacturing skills in the western world.
Regards.
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Post by Alf on Oct 29, 2007 15:01:57 GMT
Hello, Rob, and welcome. Tough crowd? Sheesh, don't venture into "The Pub" s'all I'm saying... Cheers, Alf |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Oct 29, 2007 15:19:22 GMT
Hi Rob Tough crowd? Well we have all recently escaped from another place where not only was there a dominating tool worship element (harmless hobby of course!) but any sort of dissent was very brusquely put down, largely in favour of the tool/commercial side of things. For instance the slightest mention of Lie Nielson etc and they'd all run about squeaking with excitement, and when I misspelled the name by accident they were outraged so I felt under an obligation to continue misspelling it - just for the sake of common sense and balance. So it's about balance really. I'm sure Verifast and Lea & perrins products are all utterly excellent (albeit pricy) so I wouldn't take it to heart. ;D cheers Jacob |
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Post by paulchapman on Oct 29, 2007 15:31:08 GMT
Hi Rob and welcome. Good to see you here. When are you going to make a multi-plane ;D Cheers Paul |
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Think of the wood you could buy 
.
but the biggest thing is it takes a long time, and produces a lot of shavings, if not dust.
?
