Polished steel surface and rust

[craigmarshall]

Hi,

I am trying to figure out whether a polished piece of ordinary steel* is more or less prone to rusting than a ground (or sanded etc.) surface.

Initally I thought the polished piece would have less surface area (as it's a straight line), therefore less for the rust to get hold of in the first place. Less "grip" too, if that makes sense. It would be easier to wipe a cloth over a polished surface and guarantee you've touched the whole surface.

Then I changed my mind, and thought: Well - if I wiped grease of some kind (oil, wax etc.) over a polished surface, it will come off more easily. The grease has a better chance of sitting in the grooves of a sanded surface.

Also - if the polished surface is better at being rust-resistant, perhaps when the rust finally does get into the surface, and leaves its stain, it is more visible than rust on a rough ground surface..

Does anyone know for sure?

Cheers,
Craig

(I'm talking about the lever cap from a USA type 11 stanley #7, if it helps. The nickel plating, if there ever was any, is completely gone, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to preserve it. I don't really want to get into replating, painting or lacquering though..)

[Stree]

keep it wrapped in an oily rag

[argus]

.

Iron or steel will rust regardless, though the various functions of the quality and carbon content of the steel, moisture content of the ambient atmosphere and even the amount and concentrations of acidity in the air (for example, heavily polluted air will contain traces of acids) will, in time, accelerate the process.

It strikes me that a machined surface will contain a greater surface area than a finished and polished one, though the fact that it is polished will mean that is highly susceptible to damage from corrosion or rust.
It’s probably immaterial what the surface is like – the quality of the surface has little to do with it - if it can rust, it will.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

You can obtain rust preventative coats, various preparations that will protect your tools that you don’t used often, though frequent use will usually do the trick and keep most rust at bay.


.

[dom]

Hello Argus, welcome to the forum.
Done any good carving lately ?

[engineerone]

seem to remember that whenever i made anything out of bms
bright mild steel, as an apprentice, we polished it because it delayed the onset of rust by making it take longer to oxidise.

none the less you still need to coat it, because as sure as eggs
is eggs, the bugger will eventually rust unless you live in arizona ;D

polishing makes finishing easier too.

paul

[Alf]

argus said:

It strikes me that a machined surface will contain a greater surface area than a finished and polished one

That's what I assumed too (welcome aboard btw)

I'm no metal guru but from observation it seems to me that older, seasoned if you will, metal like a lever cap is rather less inclined to want to rust anyway. Unless you expose a lot of fresh surface in the cleaning in which case all bets are off and it can go either way. Rust on new metal came up in a discussion with a LV R&D chap and he reckoned rust can sometimes be a problem because the surface is too clean - presumably there's no barrier of dirt twixt metal and air to slow oxidisation? Anyway, I should think a coat of good paste wax would look after it. Renaissance wax is supposed to be the best fwiw, but a trifle spendy.

Cheers, Alf

[argus]

dom said:

Hello Argus, welcome to the forum.
Done any good carving lately ?

Thanks for the welcome, Dom. Glad to see that you are well and, I hope, prospering.

I haven't noticed this site before and wondered where you had got to.

I've only dabbled in the carving lately, ...... some unfinished projects


My other 'day job' is taking more of a back seat at the moment; a tiny ad in our local parish magazine has brought in quite a bit of good quality local wood work - enough to keep me going, so I'm concentrating on keeping the locals contented.
I'll never be rich and famous, but it's a modest crust on the table I made from scratch.





Hi, ALF, The chemistry of ferrous corrosion is complex and extensive - but an interesting note about surface dirt as a barrier to corrosion. Lever caps etc. tend to be either non ferrous or plated and sole plates in use don't collect much rust.
There's always the presence of finger grease on adjusting points, though even that can be acidic.
But as far as we are concerned, there's rust etc. that is unsightly, but does no harm and may even (paradoxically) serve to prevent more general corrosion and then there’s destructive rust on or near cutting edges.
Personally, I don't have a particularly 'rusty' workshop, even though it's unheated, but I tend to actively avoid rust on cutting edges and the backs of blades and chisels more than I do about the surfaces of tools.
Surface pitting on laminated steel backs as you know is a disaster if it's too deep and a real chore to get off. I keep the backs of my cutting tools to a mirror finish because it forms one side of the sharpened edge.

As a barrier, I find that Silicone preparations are better than oils because they tend not to leave stains or impregnate the wood that it’s in contact with and WD 40 displaces moisture.
Liberon (I think) produced a coating wax called LUBO Wax (honest) for cast iron tables that I used as a barrier on tools used infrequently. I bought a tin about ten years ago and used sparingly it lasts ages. I can't seem to find it any more, so they probably stopped making it.

But ultimately I think that it's all down to regular tool use and good tool house-keeping.


.

[nickw]

Liberon lubricating wax can be found here amongst other places.

[craigmarshall]

Okay - well thanks for all your replies. I will try polishing these bits of steel to a bright shine, then generously coat with wax. I picked up a tin of "Antiquax" which seems to be a furniture paste wax. Is this good (as good as the others) as a general purpose wax for applying to new furniture items (the tin makes it sound like it's for touching up old stuff) and also for protecting these tools I'm talking about?

Cheers,
Craig

[argus]

nickw said:

Liberon lubricating wax can be found here amongst other places.

Thanks, Nick. Is that the same as Lubo Wax?

.

[nickw]

Pass.

[Alf]

I believe its the same - Liberon dropped the Lubo moniker.

Cheers, Alf

[newt51]

Bronze LN no4

[geoffoz]

This seems pertinent to this discussion www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=58755&cat=51&ap=1 Does anyone know of anything like this being available in the UK? Thanks

[matthewwh]

I'm not quite sure of the rules around here regarding product promotion, but it seems relevant and may help people out, so mods please give me a shot across the bows if I've overstepped the mark.

We have recently introduced a couple of products made by a company called Shield Technology based in Grimsby, they supply the MOD, aviation industry and now woodworkers with hi-tech anti corrosion products.

The first is called ToolGuard and comes in the form of little plastic pots that you can stick in your tool cabinet or to a machine. The pots release a vapour of corrosion inhibitors over a period of 12 months that interfere with the electrochemical process of corrosion rather than simply acting as a barrier. Because the chemical is in vapour form it can get in and protect hard to reach places like the insides of bearing races and electric motors.

The other is a liquid called MetalGuard Ultra that can be wiped on and leaves a thin protective layer on the surface - ideal for long term storage or as a high spec alternative for camellia oil for wiping onto tools before you put them away.

For those on the other side of the pond, I believe Tools For Working Wood are carrying them too.

Cheers,


Matthew

[engineerone]

i for one am happy to hear about this, can you arrange that we can get spec sheets, and also costs??? and of course suppliers??

paul

[matthewwh]

Hi Paul,

The VCI ToolGuard pots are £5.75 each, £12.99 for three or £32.30 for a box of ten.

MetalGuard Ultra is £14.99 for a 250ml tin.

You will find more details in the 'other cool stuff' section of Workshop Heaven, I've got some product data sheets somewhere too, so I'll try and get those uploaded with links from the product pages.

As far as I'm aware we are the only ones stocking them at present, although I'm sure it won't be long before they are widely available.

Cheers,


Matthew

[engineerone]

nice one matt. thanks look forward to the links

have you tried the motorcycle and classic car markets with the product??

paul

[Alf]

The little pots appear to be similar to the ones that Axminster were selling a coupla years ago? (sorry for the swear word there, Matthew ;D ) Now I dunno if it was coincidence, just unlucky, or what, but the brass on the two planes that were nearest the pots went green and it kinda put me off them a little. I know, my own fault for having posh planes wiv brass on 'em. Absolutely don't want to put anyone off, 'cos sure as hell nothing rusted, but maybe keep any brass bits further away..?

Cheers, Alf

[Scott]

toobyefore said:

The little pots appear to be similar to the ones that Axminster were selling a coupla years ago?

Still are by the looks of it!

www.axminster.co.uk/shop-Shield_Technology.htm

They do make a mess of metal if they are in direct contact with it right enough. My coping saw had been lying over the top of one and the metal frame had gone all manky but other than that I've never had any bother with them. My only bronze plane is a 140 that's in a box in same cupboard as 3 pots and it's been OK.

The pots themselves used to be metal but I guess they've changed to plastic.

www.enginewise.co.uk was the site I originally got them from but that site seems to be down. They promote their products among the classic car fraternity for storage of vehicles.

[wrongnail]

engineerone said:

seem to remember that whenever i made anything out of bms
bright mild steel, as an apprentice, we polished it because it delayed the onset of rust by making it take longer to oxidise.

none the less you still need to coat it, because as sure as eggs
is eggs, the bugger will eventually rust unless you live in arizona ;D

polishing makes finishing easier too.

paul

I must be lucky E1

The only thing that ever rusted in my workshop, is the butt-end of the lathe-bed on My Coronet Major. That, because it is right close to the door. A smear of grease stopped it in it's tracks!

My shop is a single-car garage, that is half-integral with the house. It faces exactly South and has a metal door. Even in Winter, once the sunlight gets on the door, it is warm. So that, combined with 'borrowed warmth' from the house, provides A1 convection and a low humidity. As an added benefit, I rarely need heating in the garage. Anyone in my position, take note.

So, even though I don't use my tools as much as I once did, I can forget about rust. (Until the water tank overflows, because the daft builders put the discharge pipe inside the garage!!! I soon re-routed that!) ;D

Regards

John

[tnimble]

Back on the topic of polished versus ground / milled. A polished surface is more rust resistant (but light rust will be visible more obvious) especially on steels with higher carbon and if hardened. When the metal is frosted and oiled or waxed afterwards the most rust resistance will be gained.

To frost a piece of metal put a flat bottomed not to large round piece of MDF or dowel in a drill press and load this with not to fine polish compound. Then depress this piece on the metal each time overlapping the previous location by half. (When the MDF dowel is 1cm, press down in a grid 5mm x 5mm)

A lever cap should always be polished as craigmarshall did or replated.

[wrongnail]

Hi Nimble,

Isn't this also called an 'engine-turned' finish. As per Faberge', albeit on a finer scale!

I finished an alloy dashboard for a friend's Vintage car like this. Looks great when it's done.

I don't have the tool any more, but I made a permanent jobbie. Just a mild steel rod about 2" long by 3/8" diameter. Face-off and then machine a 'well' in the end, which is filled with thick felt pieces. These hold the abrasive. You have to watch that you don't let the metal rod touch the surface, but the felt lasts quite well. When they wear to close, they are just replaced.

Regards
John

[wrongnail]

Dec 29, 2007 17:11:15 GMT craigmarshall said:

(I'm talking about the lever cap from a USA type 11 stanley #7, if it helps. The nickel plating, if there ever was any, is completely gone, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to preserve it. I don't really want to get into replating, painting or lacquering though..)

Hi Craig,

I have a couple of planes like this. The have no name stamped into the lever-cap and they don't look as if they ever had any plating at all to me. They look dull grey and might be gun-metal. (Doubtful) Whether or not they were originally polished I don't know, but I think I might look into the process of 'blueing' (or is that bluing?) Never know with these American dictionaries! Just to be different you know! ;D

Regards
John

[craigmarshall]

Yes - mine's the same - no name and no signs of any plating ever - dull grey too. The problem is a while back I gave it a shine up and it promptly rusted quite badly. I don't think I put any kind of barrier on there though and it was left in a damp car boot (worst place ever?). I think if I polish it, put wax on and keep it in a dry workshop it should be fine.

Not sure about blu(e)ing, sounds like something you don't want to do to your chisel on the hi-speed grinder to me ...

Craig