Sharpening and Dovetails

[wizer]

I seem to have lost a box of woodworking bits and pieces when we moved. I have been searching all day, I fear it's still in the loft of the old place

Anyway, I have lost some of my David Charlesworth DVDs. Can anyone tell me which DVD covers Chisel sharpening? I need to buy it again Confused Also I seem to remember a DVD which covered the use of the Veritas MkII honing guide, but not sure who the presenter was. Anyone seen/remember that? Might have been online.

Also my dovetail marker, wheel marker and dovetail saw where in the box. In Rob Cosman's DVD he said that the set on the LN Dovetail saw was far superior due to the fine set on the saw. Is this true? Are there slightly cheaper alternatives to the LN? Same goes for the other 2. Is the LN dovetail marker any better than the veritas? and is this axminster wheel marker much different from the Tite-mark ?

I want to start practising dovetails for an upcoming project.

[engineerone]

that's bad luck, kind of puts you off moving doesn't it???

not much help with the videos, although i think it is number 2.

however, i have the ln dovetail saw, and whilst it is good, i think a lot depends on the depth and thickness of the wood. i found on my little project, cutting the thin cedar, that a japanese saw was the best way forward, might well be worth trying. other thing to do re saws is look at the wenzloff ones.

as for the dovetails markers, i use the veritas pair which come as a 1in 6 and a 1in 8 nicely made ally. in addition, they do a nice square marker they are worth looking at.

i bought a cheap general brand marking gauge which has a
nice sharp blade, and a decent metal surface which is square, of course you could make your own

paul

[wizer]

thanks Paul, Not sure i'm patient enough to wait for a Wenzlehoff. I think i'm going to treat myself to a LN

[mrgrimsdale]

You can make perfectly OK dovetails without any of that missing kit - except a dovetail saw perhaps. Doesn't have to be pricey though - the sharpening is far more important than the brand name, within reason.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

there is a brand called zona which has been well recommended
in addition you could look at grammacy, and andria

paul

[Alf]

Tsk, tsk. No response at the other place so then you come over here and ask. For shame. Should have asked here first...

wizer said:

Anyway, I have lost some of my David Charlesworth DVDs. Can anyone tell me which DVD covers Chisel sharpening? I need to buy it again

That'd be DVD 4 I believe.

wizer said:

Also I seem to remember a DVD which covered the use of the Veritas MkII honing guide, but not sure who the presenter was. Anyone seen/remember that? Might have been online.

Hmm, not at all sure. Might have been Gidon on YouTube? Here and here.

wizer said:

In Rob Cosman's DVD he said that the set on the LN Dovetail saw was far superior due to the fine set on the saw. Is this true?

Well yeah. But the set is dependent on the setter, not the brand. I believe RC tweaks his LN a bit more as well.

wizer said:

Are there slightly cheaper alternatives to the LN?

Loads. With the LN and similar (Wenzloff, Adria etc) as far as function goes, you're basically paying for that "outta the box" thing. If either you or a reliable saw doc of your acquaintance is capable, any old saw can be made to do the job. Me, I like the pretty tools as well, so tool junkie-ness gets me coming and going...

wizer said:

Same goes for the other 2. Is the LN dovetail marker any better than the veritas?

Ack, save your money. Either use a sliding bevel or making one of your own really isn't very hard.

wizer said:

and is this axminster wheel marker much different from the Tite-mark ?

Not only d'you need to work on your choice of forums but your searching stinks, matey. ;D Try this (scroll to the bottom of the post for the Tite-A-Like clone info). It's not much different, but it's not got quite the same attention to detail, but whether that'll bother you, only you can know.

Couldn't you give the new owners a bell and ask if the box is there? Gotta be worth a shot hasn't it?

Cheers, Alf

[wizer]

Hi Alf, you got me, I am suitably shamed. In my defence, I do not often frequent either Hand Tool forum and so did not know where best to get advice But where's the harm in seeking advice from more than one place?

I have been doing some research since my post and have emailed Wenzlhoff for quote. I will also have a look at Adria. As a beginner I did want something 'out of the box', sharpening is a non-existent skill for me and I imagine saw setting to be a well practised art. For the time being I have got a cheap Japanese style to try out and I'll wait to see what Wenzlhoff can come up with.

Thanks for the various links, I think it was Gidon that I remember using the MkII. I'll have a read of your marking wheel article. My searching is not totally absent, I did read-up on your MkII article and other sharpening stuff. I'm going to re-order David's DVD as I seem to remember it made a lot of sense.

Thanks again and consider me ticked off

[wizer]

oh while I am here:

Are there mail-order saw doctors? That can setup an old 2nd hand saw?

[Alf]

Okay - three "Hail Jacobs" and we'll say no more about it... ;D

I don't have any personal experience of any saw doctor I'd actually recommend, but I believe there's a place Axminster claim can re-do a LN (so should be able to cope with doing the equivalent on any other saw - in theory) and I have a dim memory of an outfit in Wales that does them by hand...? Think a long search of the other place is probably called for on both counts for the details. (If you're really strapped I've been known to do a little saw doctoring on the side. I might even have a saw that could possibly suit, but I'm not 100% certain of that. Feel free to drop me a line if you fancy) fwiw, if you went with a cheaper modern one most likely the only serious trouble you'd have would be too much set, which you can deal with yourself without grief or special tools. As for a Wenzloff, that would be the nicest answer, if you can manage with the Japanese one in the meantime.

Ah, decisions, decisions. Can't make 'em, can't not make 'em... ;D

Cheers, Alf

[paulchapman]

Hi Wizer,

If you want the best, then having seen Alf's, I'd say go for a Wenzloff. The only problem is that, based on my experience, you will have a long wait. Another option, which would get you one quicker, would be to order one of Mike's saws from Lee Valley www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=57113&cat=1,42884,57152 I believe they have them in stock.

Cheers

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Saw doctors are all over the place. Check yellow pages, ask local tool shop, woodworkers etc. Dead cert there'll be one within 10 miles or so.
Don't buy a new saw just because the old one's blunt! Or if you reall want throwaway saws get very cheap ones
cheers
Jacob

[Alf]

mrgrimsdale said:

Saw doctors are all over the place. Check yellow pages, ask local tool shop, woodworkers etc. Dead cert there'll be one within 10 miles or so.

No doubt about it. There are also dozens of plumbers, builders and electricians all over the place - but which ones can be relied upon? Having had dealings with a "founder member of the Saw Doctors Association" who didn't know the difference between rip and crosscut teeth, I'm inclined to think it's easier to get a good plumber...

Cheers, Alf

[jfc]

Okay - three "Hail Jacobs" and we'll say no more about it...

;D ;D

There is a forum member that is a very good saw doctor but i'll leave it to him to pipe up if he wants to incase he is busy

[dom]

No, he's not, ' cos he was with me today.

[colincott]

Hi Wizer

I guess them two above me are talking about me

I have an idea ( quiet in the back ), as I have you EZ egdes.

How do you fancy a lesson on sharping your saw so you can do it yourself and I can bring the edges at the same time?

Regards Colin

[engineerone]

you do wonder whewn colin finds time to have a life, what with
visiting jason, dom and i in recent days, plus the work

wizer i have tried a couple of his dovetail saws, and can recommend taking up the offer before you spend any real money

paul

[wizer]

wow Colin that is a very kind offer. I need to find myself a saw first. I got outbid on that eBay one you suggested.

I'm back to work tomorrow so it will have to be a weekend or evening?

[colincott]

I will pm you my number and we can arrange something

When you have a saw that is

[wizer]

ok mate, I'll keep my eye out for a saw.

Cheers

[davidc]

Do I understand that both Colin and Alf would be prepared to sharpen dovetail saws for the public?

If so this would be a fantastic service, as it is not easy to find sawdoctors who still do this in The South.

In fact any list of suitable contacts would be a valuable resource.
My searching ability is c**p as well..........

It is the sharpening and setting that makes a dovetail saw work well, many of the other attributes are largely aesthetic

The latest excellent, hand filed and set, saw to cross my threshold is the petite Grammercy saw from Joel. More TPI than L-N & Adria. The Wenzloff has the most comfortable and beautiful handle ever and will be a joy forever, with TPI between L-N and Grammercy.

David

[mrgrimsdale]

davidc said:

Do I understand that both Colin and Alf would be prepared to sharpen dovetail saws for the public?

If so this would be a fantastic service, as it is not easy to find sawdoctors who still do this in The South.

In fact any list of suitable contacts would be a valuable resource.

My local saw doctor is www.lmcuttingtools.com/ (crap web site! )
Their main occupation is with machine tooling but they also sharpen hand saws by hand. Or by machine if in need of re-cut, which isn't always a good idea as you lose a lot of saw.
I'd guess that their set up is typical i.e. machine tooling first with more trad hand sharpening on the side - so it might be worth approaching similar firms elsewhere.

I'm getting in to doing it myself - results so far: better than a blunt saw, not up to professional standards but improving

cheers
Jacob

[Alf]

My cue for denial and hiding behind the sofa, methinks...! I have done a few for various folks (if anyone recalls Andy's quest to get his grandfather's Disston sharpened, well I ended up doing that f'rinstance. No pressure, huh...?), plus saws I've sold of course. Trouble is a) I'm slow, and b) anything above about 15ppi makes my eyes boss. ;D Oh, and I'm very, very expensive... ;D

Anyway, I believe the Welsh one I was thinking of is Ian at Dragon Saws (hand filing and setting, plus they've got a retoother, which I envy greatly. Recutting teeth by hand takes a long time, although as Jacob says, it's usually a bit less steel-greedy). Can't find the Axminster-recommended one. I keep meaning to give ProSharp a go, but the only time I go to Hayle is on Sunday mornings for the car boot sale - and they ain't open then.

Cheers, Alf

[jfc]

Jacob , are you doing rounded bevels on your saw teeth ? ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

jfc said:

Jacob , are you doing rounded bevels on your saw teeth ? ;D

Yep sure am - they don't cut very well but are much safer. ;D

cheers
Jacob

[nickw]

I sent one of my saws off to Ian at Dragon Saws last week. It was in a very sorry state so I asked him to re-make it as a 14tpi crosscut with minimal set. It came back well within a week, looks good and cuts well so he is to be recommended. The price was dead good too. ;D

Thanks to Alf for the lead, and to Ian for making me a happy customer.