I have seen the LIGHT!!!!!!!

[thallow]

Hi not posted for a while due to busy life, but have been lurkin an enjoyin forum as always! ;D

Anyway during my time away I bought a No5 Stanley plane - dunno how it happened, have never used a plane in my life, well actually I did 'use' one to prop open a door at school many many years ago, cough ahem, and thats about my 'experience' of using one

Anyway I put this plane thing in my shed and just left it on the shelf, occasionally taking it out of the box, making star wars style laser gun noises (cough ahem) and then put it back in its box and continued to shove wood thru my jet thicknesser

Anyway last weekend when I lifted the thicknesser off its lower shelf , I discovered that it was covered in cat p*** I knew that I had smelt something funny the other week!

Then my eyes focused suddenly on 'the box' hmm, what was that about a stone and 25 or was it 30 or both or something.....anyway after some head scratching and a trip to the shops I bought an oilstone, did a bit of grunting and pushing and hey presto I had a sharp blade edge - i then pushed this plane thing along a piece of oak, nothing happened, it kinda stuck, I had a fiddle with the round turny thing pushed again, repeated process about 8 times, I was just about to give up when suddenly there beholden to me was a beautiful glide and lots of thin curly pieces of oak, l tried again, wow this is fantastic...I went on doing this for about two hours and pretty much planed like I had never planed before...so THIS is what ALF gets so enthused about, what a fantastic feeling, I have since bought a number 4 from ebay and at a car boot found myself arguing over the price of a 2.00 'coffin plane' whatever that is for.....!

Anyway it is steak and clotted cream for the cat and a new shelf on which to store my forthcoming collection....hmmmm

Anyway back to the original reason for this post, after planing some lenghts of oak (bout 4 ft) I continued to get this effect: (exagerrated in the pic below)



I spose its kinda like snipe I used to get on my thicknesser, but obviously this was only ever an inch or two. I know the issue is how I am using the plane, but how do you keep the sole(?) perfectly horizontal BEFORE it is fully in contact with the wood in order to avoid the above shape?

Sorry for the long winded question and apologies for this very simple query, but I am v keen to get up to speed with me methods!

Thanks as always for your time and advice!

Now Im back to ebay to look for more planes...woo hoo

[dom]

Not gonna answer your question, 'cos there are others who are more qualified and eloquent to do so.

But I am so pleased to see that another lunatic has come out in the open, welcome to the club ;D

[engineerone]

first bit of advice from a non expert is get a longer plane.

for instance a number 6 or 7 type.

actually it is the problem almost everybody has at the beginning, and i used to show people how to avoid it when filing metal years ago. your mind tells you a short file/ plane would be easier to handle, but in fact it deceives you into thinking you are moving level. with a longer item, you can see the rise and fall more easily.

the other reason for using a longer plane is the blade is further from the front so you get more on the wood before you start, and it goes between the hollows and rises more easily.

many people recommend scribing a line along the piece to allow you to get it fixed in your mind how you are planing.

thing is also dependant upon how and where you are holding the wood. in a vice, or against dogs are you sure it is horizontal?
also at what height are you planing, makes a difference too.

finally of course on the edges, you could always make a shooting board and ensure it works, but actually i have found that practice is what it takes.

assuming you are sizing rough saw cut wood, initially you would not expect to get a shaving for the whole length of your board, so it takes a little time to get to where that might happen, which gives you a chance to check your levels more frequently.

paul who seems to learn more every time he picks up the plane

[paulchapman]

Welcome to the world of hand planes, Thallow - you don't know what you've let yourself in for ;D ;D

What you have discovered is the fact that if you keep planing a piece of wood along its length, you will eventually plane it into a curve. To understand why this happens, its best to think of a plane sole like an in-feed and out-feed table. With a machine planer you can adjust the tables each side of the blade by the thickness of the cut, but with a hand plane you can't do this. So you have to do something else to overcome the problem.

The answer is to take 'stop shavings' (as David Charlesworth calls them). Start the cut, say, an inch in from the end and stop planing an inch before the other end. Keep planing like this until the plane won't cut any more, then take a couple of full length shavings and you will find that the board is straight in its length.

Once you are aware of this problem it's easy to correct it as you go along. Keep a straight edge handy and keep checking and you will see for yourself what is happening.

Of course, the longer the plane the better - when are you getting a #7 ;D

Hope this is clear - if not please shout ;D

Cheers

Paul

[thallow]

Engineerone: Thanks for your advice, hmm a longer plane, that sounds good! ;D I like the idea of a pencil line, top tip I will try that!, the wood was on a bench against a stop, I am not 100% sure that it is level and didnt really think about that so I will adjust next time!

A couple of times with rough sawn pieces I took higher parts off with a smaller plane and then tried to finish with the bigger one, YES i did think it would be easier - but the result was not as good!

Paul C - thanks as well ;D you explained the stop method great! and it makes sense, my only question would does this work on longer lengths? I am guessing I coould leave a stop in the middle as opposed to just at the ends?

And finally (for now!) I found it easier at times to push the plane forward at an angle (ie flat but to the left if that makes sense) and get a much easier cut, is this a good/bad idea or does it not matter?

[engineerone]

getting in the words before alf sees this ;D

use a candle to wax the base of your plane, and it will
move more easily. when starting out, i found it easier to
use thin shavings rather than learn to deal with thicker ones.
i guess that when i get more proficient i will feel more confident with thicker cuts.

often you do have to angle to plane and therefore the blade to work more easily on certain woods, cuts down break out etc.

and paul c is right, (as usual ) the stopped method works well, and on any length, but do not try to have one in the middle.

welcome to the rocky slope ;D

paul

[paulchapman]

thallow said:

my only question would does this work on longer lengths? I am guessing I coould leave a stop in the middle as opposed to just at the ends?

And finally (for now!) I found it easier at times to push the plane forward at an angle (ie flat but to the left if that makes sense) and get a much easier cut, is this a good/bad idea or does it not matter?

Yes, it does work on longer lengths but you need to vary it a little. For a 4' board, your #5 was a little short. I would have used a #7. But for now, take stop shavings over the central, say, 18" then gradually extend this by an inch or so either side and carry on like this. It will have the same effect.

Yes, skewing the plane does reduce the resistance somewhat and therefore makes planing easier. You could also try taking lighter cuts. If you were planing boards to joint them together, it would be better to hold the plane straight and not skew it.

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

paul, we must be careful, next we'll see dom using a hand tool ;D

paul

[colincott]

engineerone said:

paul, we must be careful, next we'll see dom using a hand tool ;D

paul

No chance

I know he has some but I cant remember him using one

[dom]

Oh crap, does that mean I'm a collector ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

Personally I wouldn't advise a longer plane as the other have. A 5 or 5 1/2 can do 99% of the planing you need to do. It's a good idea to stick with just one jack plane until you can really make it work well, before wondering about other planes. If you are not very competent with 1 plane, buying another one just leads to being not very competent with 2 planes! Increasing the problem, not reducing it.
In any case the next one should be a block plane - a 7 is a specialist plane which you only rarely need. Frinstance I used one on some 4m long window stiles - squared up 1st on a planer, then straightened by hand and eye, then thicknessed through the machine.
So stick with the jack. Take out the bump by planing from the middle - slicing the top off the hill, each pass getting longer but pressing on the nose at the start of the pass, and on the heel at the finish - as though you are trying to plane it hollow.
You have to think, look, feel, react, as you work, and take control - not to give up and hope that another tool will solve the problem.
IMHO many amateur woodworkers have far too many tools, and never get on top of any of them, they'd be better off dumping a few - giving them to me for instance!

cheers
Jacob
PS skewing the plane is effectively shortening the plane, and pointless.

[Alf]

So now you know why we call it The Slope then. ;D

Most points I'd have made have already been said, but just to clarify the bits I think are important:

• I wouldn't get a longer plane just now, agree with Jacob there. That advice sort of sounds like it contradicts the old analogy of a short plane being like a small boat, traveling up and down the waves, while a long plane is like a large tanker, traveling across multiple waves - ergo longer is better, right? But get familiar with handling the jack first, I reckon. A jointer is a little unwieldy when you're starting out, imo.
  
• Apply pressure on the nose of the plane at the start of the cut, even off across the whole plane during the cut and increase pressure at the heel at the end; it's a good habit to get into. As Jacob says, try to "plane it hollow". In effect that's what DC's stopped shavings are doing, but in their more regulated, engineer-y sort of way.
  
• Wax on the sole - and then remember not to let the plane shoot off the end of the board...
  
• The humble pencil is a valuable tool in getting an idea of the topography of the board; humps and bumps, dips etc. Scribble all over the board, take a run of shavings, then have a look see. Doing that frequently while you're learning is particularly helpful I think
  

Oh and a coffin plane just refers to the shape, not the use. Usually smoothers, but some specialist planes came coffin-shaped too.

Cheers, Alf

[nickw]

Other causes of a curved surface might be:
The sole of the plane is not flat. If it is concave wou will end up with the convex surface you have described.
The bench you are working on is not flat, usually more of a problem if it is concave, but I guess the same can happen with a convex surface. Pushing the plane over the timber temporarily forces it into the shape of the surface it is lying on.

[paulchapman]

Just one additional comment on what planes you 'need' - it all depends on what else you have. If, like most, you also have a planer/thicknesser, table saw and band saw, then most of your planing will be finishing work and you will be able to manage with just a couple of planes. If, however, you are like me and have no machinery, then you will need to use hand planes for stock preparation as well as finishing. The two activities are very different and for stock preparation you will need planes that are set up very differently from those that are used for finishing - unless you want to be there all day ;D

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

how can i a mere neophyte argue with alf???

however, whilst i understand the constant cry from jacob about getting used to one tool, and being proficient at it, it really does go back to training.

if you have had little training from someone who knows what they are doing, then the learning curve with a jack is to me very complex. i can set my no 6 easily, but have problems setting the 4 1/2 and both blades are similarly sharp, in fact i use the 6 more than any others of the planes i have except the low angle block.

i agree with nick about flatness of the sole, and the bench, but unless you have been bashing your worktop with a hammer for centuries, i cannot see how a few low or high spots would overall give the effect you see, not least cause i think the wood would rock about.

in a powered planer, you tend to cut the high spots on the concave side first whereas some suggest that by hand, you tend to do the convex side first because it is easier to hold stable.
others may disagree, and suggest using shims etc, but that is later when you have more practice.

i tend to the paul c school where if you are learning the benefits of hand work, you need a roughing plane and a smoother one.
so unless you want to reset planes all day, that is two bits, in which case, you could try a long one and a short one.

i do agree about getting a block plane though, they are really neat, especially if you are lucky enough to try a ln or lv.

there is some value in using a length of 25 mm mdf as the base for your planing, and that makes life somewhat simpler i think.

paul

[Alf]

engineerone said:

how can i a mere neophyte argue with alf???

however...

Knew that was coming ;D

Guys, softly, softly, eh? You've got to get the guy firmly on The Slope first, far enough down so he can't scramble back over the edge - and only then do you start getting into all the planes you need, different cambers, jointing edges etc etc. Softly softly catchee monkey...

Cheers, Alf

[engineerone]

actually alf i just went off and re fettled my number 6 to see if i was talking through the proper orifice ;D

a couple of minutes on the dmt, and then the leather strop,
and back in the lv 6 ( sorry but i do have one, actually i am not bloody sorry, it is a neat bit of kit ) then onto a couple of bits out of my oak offies pile (no i don't have piles : after some adjustment i get nice paper thin shavings and a really smooth feeling surface to the oak, and the shavings start out in short bits, then get gradually longer. very satisfying

i noticed that jacob does actually use machine power for some of his working before a final planing, which is not what we were talking about.

the great thing is alf thallow has already put himself on the slope, all we are doing is waxing the sole (soul : and removing the end stop ;D

now we have to figure out how he is going to shave the cat

paul

[paulchapman]

toobyefore said:

Guys, softly, softly, eh? You've got to get the guy firmly on The Slope first, far enough down so he can't scramble back over the edge - and only then do you start getting into all the planes you need, different cambers, jointing edges etc etc. Softly softly catchee monkey...

You are awful, Alf, but I like your style ;D ;D

Cheers

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

engineerone said:

snip
i noticed that jacob does actually use machine power for some of his working before a final planing, which is not what we were talking about.

Tis what we're talking about.
I've also made stacks of stuff entirely by hand - well I had to, I couldn't afford machines.
Also I use hand tools whenever there is good enough excuse, just for the pleasure of it - more so since I learned how to sharpen properly.
5 or 5 1/2 jack plane does everything from rough sawn boards right through to fine finishing and end grain.
All other planes give marginal extra benefits e.g. block plane useful for working one handed, but are not essential.
The idea that you need a complete set - like a mechanic's socket set, is not true, but is just a tool merchant's dream!
What's a no. 6 for btw?

cheers
Jacob

[dunbarhamlin]

I had just a #7 and a block plane for a long time (believe a certain Mr Peters used a #7 almost exclusively?)
Agree a jack may be a better all rounder.

Having several planes is a luxury, but allows each to be set up for a different operation, so I have some with cambered blades (such as my #6, as a foreplane for stock prep and as a short try plane since I'm learning the cambered jointing approach at the mo) and some straight (such as my #7 for rubbed joints, T5 for shooting, #4.1/2 for smoothing (yes, I know, still not into cambers for this))

I split them roughly into prep, joinery, finishing - though with overlaps (my #7 used for both finishing and jointing)
For the transition between prep and finishing, I find it good to have a range of cambers, mouths and sizes pretty much like stepping through grades of sandpaper. As I said, I used to do it all with one, but given the option it is easier with several.
Cheers
(not quite ab initio) Steve

[paulchapman]

mrgrimsdale said:

I've also made stacks of stuff entirely by hand - well I had to, I couldn't afford machines.

I'm in a similar position - I can't afford the machinery so I've had to find the most efficient way of doing it by hand. Which is why I find some of your comments so baffling, Jacob.

Planing a rough, sawn, board of, say, oak efficiently requires a plane set up quite differently from one used to finish it. So it must surely be more efficient (and far less effort) to have more than one plane (or at least several blades) set up differently

Maybe you do only a limited range of work or possibly work mainly in soft wood It would be helpful to know how you have arrived at your conclusions. My experience suggests that a range of hand planes (particularly if you don't have machinery) is definitely an advantage and nothing to do with posession of tools for its own sake.

Cheers

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

I was really addressing remarks to thallow who seems to be just getting started with his first plane. Sure, when he gets proficient, and if the work demands it, he might benefit from expanding his collection - as per dunbarhamlin above. But until then, investing in new planes could be a waste of time and a distraction.
Yes I do a lot of softwood, but other stuff too. I still think you can do almost everything with one jack plane - keeping it sharp and adjusting as necessary. I use a 7 occasionally, but could do the work with the jack if necessary. I also use a 4 and a 4 1/2, but not very often. The 4 1/2 is too close to the 5 1/2 to make much difference in my experience. That's why I wondered what a 6 is for.

cheers
Jacob
PS I also use a block a lot - mainly cos it's one handed.
PPS casting my mind back I've just remembered my 1st plane purchase was a no.7 but I can't remember why. I guess I thought it's board edging capabilities were essential (wrong) and that it would do for everything else. It would, but not as conveniently as a jack.

[colincott]

I guess I am one of the few that does not like the #5 that I have

I do use it sometimes for site work as I would not be bothered if it hit the floor and ended up in two pieces.

My first two planes where a #4 and a #6 but I do have a few more ;D

[Alf]

Nah, you're not the only one, Colin. I don't even own a #5 per se; use a wooden technical jack with some serious camber instead. Mind you I don't own a #6 either (see? I keep telling everyone I'm not a collector, but do they believe me...? ) The #5 1/2 though, I really like that size plane (the old ones with a 2 1/4" iron, or the LV LA equiv)

My first plane was my dad's 1960s Stanley #4, although in my ignorance at the time I'd have told you it was the Surform "plane" ;D

Cheers, Alf

[paulchapman]

Same here - I don't really like the #5. I have an old Record Stay Set #05 that I bought second-hand and it works well with a Clifton blade fitted. Not so much a Jack of all trades, more a master of none, in my view..........

Cheers

Paul