EZSmart now available in the UK

[Alf]

Thanks, Scrit - feeling much better (well until The Curse of Parcel Force struck at least ) ta muchly. ;D

Cheers, Alf

[mrgrimsdale]

scrit said:

snip
I also find it interesting that at least two other members were aware of the three edge system, as originally described by Sir J. Armstrong Whitworth. An interesting exercise for all, I'd say!
snip

He was a local lad (in his later years) and buried just up the road from here. The impressive Whitworth Institute still alive and well - though being refurbed I gather.
Living as I do near the world centre of the industrial revolution there are other bits of ind archaeology around such as the Middleton Top steam engine - still in situ and in running order albeit without steam, older than Stevenson's rocket, in use continuously from 1820 to 1965 or thereabouts - but with pre Whitworth engineering; no steel, all cast or wrought iron, bronze, nuts and bolts all non standard individually smith made.
cheers
Jacob

[pewe]

Let's hope that the UK distribution can organise a better angle of attack with it's promotion.

It will certainly be different.

Scrit - you make a very valid point regarding claims and justifying them, both from a credibility point of view and a 'legal' one.

Personally I have a Scheppach 4500 table saw with a sliding table. But for the sort of things I do I now hardly ever use it for various reasons, but far be it from me to say that everyone should consider replacing their table/panel saw with any sort of alternative.

I have always believed that the majority of potential customers are more than capable of making up their own minds about the usefulness/benefits of a product if you give them the facts and demonstrate capability.

I have many 'shop made' alternatives to products scattered around the workshop, and if people have the skill, facilities and the time some are capable of making alternatives for many things (including panel saws), but the quality, convenience and durability will in most cases never be the same as professionally produced alternatives - which obviously come at a price, and the EZ system is no different.

[mrgrimsdale]

Shop made straight edge doesn't need to be as precise as the Whitworth 3 system above. Doing it by eye is OK for us umble woodworkers - easy to do and probably more accurate than EeZee thingy.
Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

cheers
Jacob

[colincott]

mrgrimsdale said:

Shop made straight edge doesn't need to be as precise as the Whitworth 3 system above. Doing it by eye is OK for us umble woodworkers - easy to do and probably more accurate than EeZee thingy.
Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

cheers
Jacob

Jacob

Now here you make no sence as it is just a way to cut and mould what you/we are using e.g. like a table saw, spindle moulder and mortiser.

Now how does it differ or is it just because you see that it is not needed that people should not get it

What different hand and eye skills do you use ( like when you use a table saw )that are different when use the EZ or something like it.

I would like to know

[jake]

We should do everything with our teeth - it's good enough for beavers.

[pewe]

Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

I agree - but it is an unfortunate fact of life that the skills used by tradesmen in the days before machinery have been fast disappearing for a long time.

I remember my grandfather could rip a long board with a hand saw and then plane the edge flat and square on almost every occasion - but how many people can do that now. For most people table and panel saws replaced the need many years ago for the skills he had.

Schools no longer teach the basics skills in woodworking and metalwork that they used to, apprenticeships in hand skills are few and far between, and manufacturers have little need of such skills with all the computerised production machinery used now - so there are few places left for most people to develop the skills.

It is this lack of skill coupled with the need for speed that drives people toward buying all the brass knobbed gadgetry - but mostly because of necessity rather than desire.

It may be sad, but that's life - whether we like it or not.

[wizer]

Peter I'd like a refund.... My teeth will do a better job than this 'Machined' - 'Straight' - 'Edge' Pah!

;D

[mrgrimsdale]

colincott said:

mrgrimsdale said:

Shop made straight edge doesn't need to be as precise as the Whitworth 3 system above. Doing it by eye is OK for us umble woodworkers - easy to do and probably more accurate than EeZee thingy.
Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

cheers
Jacob

Jacob

Now here you make no sence as it is just a way to cut and mould what you/we are using e.g. like a table saw, spindle moulder and mortiser.

Now how does it differ or is it just because you see that it is not needed that people should not get it

What different hand and eye skills do you use ( like when you use a table saw )that are different when use the EZ or something like it.

I would like to know

No I meant straight edges. A lot of people think you need to buy them. Often you can make your own with hand and eye skills alone
cheers
Jacob

[pewe]

Peter I'd like a refund.... My teeth will do a better job than this 'Machined' - 'Straight' - 'Edge' Pah!

I have just been offered the import rights for a nice range of Chinese produced dentures - will a swap do? ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

And talking of machined straight edges - I've had three alu fences on various machines over the past few years - all of them were less than flat and were radically improved by hand and eye skills - i.e. working over them with wet n dry and checking with a straight edge - a piece of lath planed straight also by hand and eye.
You chaps should try it sometimes it's not as difficult as you obviously think ;D ;D
This issue comes up in various guises e.g. there was a long thread _{over there} about the impossibility of hand planing to a flat finish, without having a perfectly flat workbench to start with. Complete nonsense

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

pewe said:

Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

I agree - but it is an unfortunate fact of life that the skills used by tradesmen in the days before machinery have been fast disappearing for a long time.

I remember my grandfather could rip a long board with a hand saw and then plane the edge flat and square on almost every occasion - but how many people can do that now. For most people table and panel saws replaced the need many years ago for the skills he had.

Schools no longer teach the basics skills in woodworking and metalwork that they used to, apprenticeships in hand skills are few and far between, and manufacturers have little need of such skills with all the computerised production machinery used now - so there are few places left for most people to develop the skills.

It is this lack of skill coupled with the need for speed that drives people toward buying all the brass knobbed gadgetry - but mostly because of necessity rather than desire.

It may be sad, but that's life - whether we like it or not.

Funny how gadget salesmen are always trying to persuade everybody that handskills are lost forever or extremely difficult to learn without years of expert advice etc etc and guess what - the answer is to buy a gadget ;D ;D
Complete b888cks

cheers
Jacob

[pewe]

Funny how gadget salesmen are always trying to persuade everybody that handskills are lost forever or extremely difficult to learn without years of expert advice etc etc and guess what - the answer is to buy a gadget

I can't see any comments like that in this thread.

It's certainly not what I said.

[Scrit]

pewe said:

Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

I agree - but it is an unfortunate fact of life that the skills used by tradesmen in the days before machinery have been fast disappearing for a long time.

I remember my grandfather could rip a long board with a hand saw and then plane the edge flat and square on almost every occasion - but how many people can do that now?

With respect I think you're out of touch with what trained joiners can do, pewe. Any trained and experienced man can plane an edge square, or hand plane a rebate, and handle a crosscut saw, chisel, etc as well as use their power equivalents (in some cases an entirely different set of skills), although I'll grant you that very few people would hand rip as it's too slow and inaccurate, but we all still do rip cuts, for example in hand sawing tenons, etc. As to "plane the edge flat and square on almost every occasion" it's supposed to be flat and square every time...... And many joiners I know can and do do that regularly.

Where I'm working at the moment in the course of today one of the softwood joiners has set-out and made up a prototype for a vaulted roof without drawings (the setting out required a bit of geometry and traditional non-CAD technical drawing skills), another has spent part of his day making shallow 3D diamond decorative pieces by hand whilst a third has been hanging a pair of 60mm thick solid oak doors.

In the meantime me and my "lad" working in solid oak have cut and fitted (glued and pinned, in some cases screwed as well) a couple of dozen lengths of mitred mouldings (including scribing to the walls and in several cases carving the joints to be correct - traditional mouldings are anything but consistent), cut, trimmed and fitted a couple of 30mm oak window boards, trimmed, hand jointed and glued-up some wide soffit and another window board and set-out another part of a wall for a 4-part cornice moulding (some 9 feet above ground level) amongst other things. Tools used by me and my lad range from simple chisels, mallets, hand saws and hand planes, through power tools such as a belt sander and power planer to a self-levelling laser at the "tech" end of the spectrum. We both understand how to do things with hand tools and some jobs are quicker done that way - but wherever power tools are more appropriate because they are faster or more accurate they get used.

The point I am trying to make is that pretty much any competent joiner, including the relatively young, will have these skills. The effective use of power tools is only possible when you've mastered the hand-powered predecessors, which is why C&G trainees all have to learn the basic skills before progressing (and that includes mundane stuff like being able to read a drawing and set-out using a scale rule). It is also necessary to revert to hand tools when there is no power available or because there just aren't enough cordless tools available (or when some scrotre has nicked yer kit!). The fact that much modern work does not call for hand tool skills in many areas is perhaps more down to the speed at which everyone wants things done and not the skill of the joiners.

Another thing a reasonable joiner can do is make his own jigs and fixtures on the job. To date on this project I've made door wedges, a stopped mitre template block, drilling jigs, various cross-section layouts, go-no go blocks, setting-out blocks, wedge-type cramps (see photo elsewhere), etc. All on site without a workshop to help out. It's all part of the job.

BTW the age range of the joiners on this job is from 24 to 58, and no I'm not the oldest.

Scrit

[mrgrimsdale]

Exactamente ;D ;D


cheers
Jacob
PS wossa go-no go block? Sounds vaguely japanese, or is to do with Bo no bo chimpanzees? - very sexy little beasts I've heard

[Scrit]

mrgrimsdale said:

PS wossa go-no go block?

Nicked from engineering, really. In this case a block with a pair of mortises cut in it - right size on one side, too wide on 't other. By inserting the ends of pre-tenoned components we were able to determine which ones required paring before lugging the components up the ladder. Bench joiners? You just can't get the staff. ;D

Scrit

[mel]

ive been thinking about this subject for some time today .
it would appear to be getting "out of hand"

so heres my twopenoth.

mr G im agreement with you and you have so far put up a very good argument

these tools / gadgets are clearly set for the amature market where there is a lack of natural talent , B+Q shelves are filled with gadgets and goodies to entertain the same market

throughout years of site work joinery ive never seen the EZ thing
what i have seen is improvisation and skills past down.
does anyone really think that a site joiner will entertain the idea of carrying around a high tech straight edge ?? I dont think so .

why does it have to be so expensive to saw a straight line ??
indeed why is it such a lengthy debate to saw a straight line ??
was it wizer who said that the offset of the base plate on his saw left too much room for error ??
for me its simple maths coupled with a good few years experience

is it because the schools are no longer teaching skills like joinery ??

steel helmet at the ready waiting for the incoming

[dom]

What you're saying Mel does have some substance but not enough.
When I'm on site my festool guide saves a lot of time, trimming down doors, cutting up sheet materials.
Just plonk it on the line and cut, no extra trimming no planing.
I totally agree that many improvisational skills are being lost, but like mobile telephones these new, faster methods are here to stay, we have to go with them( in commerce) or die.
If I were a hobbyist then perhaps I might resort to more home made jigs, but now that I have the toys, I doubt it.
Ripping a length of timber, is not in my considered opinion, a skill that needs honing., I know I can do it and won't forget how to.
Bit like riding a bike, bit wobbly at first but you soon get back into it.
Having said all that, youngsters should be taught the correct way of doing it, if only to maintain a tradition and preserve the skills.
Amen

[Scrit]

mel said:

Throughout years of site work joinery ive never seen the EZ thing. What I have seen is improvisation and skills passed down. Does anyone really think that a site joiner will entertain the idea of carrying around a high tech straight edge ?? I dont think so.

You'll hate me for saying this, Mel, but a straight edge with some form of anti-spelch device is an amazingly quick and accurate way to trim doors, so I feel that some of these devices do have a place on sites, if you can manage to get them in the van and then hump them to where you are working (the BIG limiting factor in the kit you use). I think you'll start seeing them in due course in trades like flooring where they are now much more widely used (particularly in Germany and Scandinavia) simply because they are faster.

Not so much incoming.......

This leaves me as a sort of piggy in the middle - on the one hand I can see a use for "high tech" devices like laser levels, Festool/EZ rails, etc whilst on the other hand I espouse traditional skills. Now I'm really confused

Scrit

[wizer]

Yep I did say that mel. For good reason. I left school without a single qualification, we didn't even do woodworking at school. I worked my way up in the IT industry because i'm naturally a nerd. I enjoy certain woodworking disciplines, but ripping down PLY is never going to be fun. So I spent my hard earned money on a tool which will save me time and error (and money). This is a personal choice. I do not think that you can call this a gadget as such. I have seen the festool system on many 'jobsites'. It's the future i'm afraid. What did the skilled ancient carpenter say when they brought out a 'machine' which took the hard work out of planing a board? The world evolves.

[pewe]

With respect I think you're out of touch with what trained joiners can do, pewe

I don't think I am Scrit. I have a healthy respect for the capability of trained and skilled joiners - my point was that there is not enough of them - partly because

because the schools are no longer teaching skills like joinery ??

and I second the motion

youngsters should be taught the correct way of doing it, if only to maintain a tradition and preserve the skills.

- but not just for joinery and general woodworking - there are a lot of other hand skills being overlooked too.

And on a final note

why does it have to be so expensive to saw a straight line ??

If the system was just for sawing straight lines I'd agree - (excercises control avoiding going further and being accused of a sales pitch )

[colincott]

mrgrimsdale said:

colincott said:

Jacob

Now here you make no sence as it is just a way to cut and mould what you/we are using e.g. like a table saw, spindle moulder and mortiser.

Now how does it differ or is it just because you see that it is not needed that people should not get it

What different hand and eye skills do you use ( like when you use a table saw )that are different when use the EZ or something like it.

I would like to know

No I meant straight edges. A lot of people think you need to buy them. Often you can make your own with hand and eye skills alone
cheers
Jacob

Jacob

I see what you mean and agree with you as we also ways made are own when I was working for firms and have made my own too.

[mrgrimsdale]

pewe said:

Hand and eye skills tend to get overlooked when there's enough glittering brass knobbed gadgetry on show, which is a pity.

I agree - but it is an unfortunate fact of life that the skills used by tradesmen in the days before machinery have been fast disappearing for a long time.

I remember my grandfather could rip a long board with a hand saw and then plane the edge flat and square on almost every occasion - but how many people can do that now. For most people table and panel saws replaced the need many years ago for the skills he had.

Schools no longer teach the basics skills in woodworking and metalwork that they used to, apprenticeships in hand skills are few and far between, and manufacturers have little need of such skills with all the computerised production machinery used now - so there are few places left for most people to develop the skills.

It is this lack of skill coupled with the need for speed that drives people toward buying all the brass knobbed gadgetry - but mostly because of necessity rather than desire.

It may be sad, but that's life - whether we like it or not.

Very off-putting the above, to an aspiring woodworker. Infact a model of discouragement.
Don't let it put you off!!
I'd suggest printing it out, pinning it up, and throwing darts at it whenever you feel like it.

Oops but darts involves hand and eye skills - you can't get the training, it's a lost art, mysterious initiation rites, my ol' granpa knew how to do it, they don't teach darts at school anymore etc etc.
Then there's the sharpening - oy oy don't go there! You can go and do a weekend course and buy a jig or 2.
And the calculations. Nobody uses chalk. blackboard and mental arithmetic any more - it's so much simpler with a big computer and a useful programme called "Add-Up"
You can buy these expensive american darts which are guaranteed to hit the bulls eye "outa da box" so thats one problem part solved.
Then there's the well known brand of dart launcher (brass knobs all over). You need an engineering quality flat table though, amongst many other things, but it makes darts a whole lot easier (but slower).

cheers
Jacob

[Scrit]

Jacob, do I sense that your last post was just a tiny bit tongue in cheek?

Scrit

[wizer]

Scrit: You sensed that too, eh?