|
|
Post by Scrit on Apr 29, 2008 21:21:52 GMT
Here's a quick one for the "cogniscenti" of kitchen fitting. Exactly how do you install your laminate upstands? You know, the 8mm thick shiney stuff which goes between the worktop and the underside of the upper cabinets as opposed to the piddling little 4in high stuff.
Do you, for example, finish-off the top edges with a plastic "hockey stick" moulding or just leave them bare like tilers do? And for that matter how do you deal with those requests to laminate-clad the kitchen window reveals? How do you cope with cut-outs which aren't in alignment? (Bloody sparkies with their wonky 6in boat levels!) How do you deal with walls plastered on a bad day? (Or in other words most of them) Is it ever possible to butt joint the stuff relatively seemlessly? Lastly, is this stuff ever delivered flat? Every time I deal with it it seems to have curled up like last week's lettuce! I've got my own ideas on this (some of which might even be correct) but as I've never seen anything in print on the subject I'd really rather like to know the panel's opinion. Seriously. As these darned things always have me almost biting the carpet
Scrit
|
|
|
|
Post by jfc on Apr 29, 2008 22:03:55 GMT
Never had to fit them mate , nor the upstand so no help i'm afraid . Normally tiles or granite .
|
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on Apr 29, 2008 22:31:31 GMT
i'm with jason, convince the client to use tiles blimey even council's have it done that way now   oh yes and silicon ;D mind you, the important thing always is to get a proper plasterer  paul  |
|
|
|
Post by Keith on Apr 30, 2008 7:04:08 GMT
Ditto what everyone else said
They wanted laminate upstands on my last job, mirror finish, but with a load of sockets and such I talked them into having tiles
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonb on Apr 30, 2008 7:51:51 GMT
Never fitted the full height ones, just gripfill the short ones. You can get alloy extrusions that take the panels, they can be packed to suit the wall and should help hold the panel flat. Have a look at page 5 of this pdf. Jason |
|
|
|
Post by Scrit on Apr 30, 2008 16:38:43 GMT
This is all pretty much as I expected. How depressing! I get these jobs from time to time where people are "convinced" by a salesman (salesperson) that the end result will be wonderful and seamless. Well maybe in a showroom they are, but when you are out there trying to get a "seamless" look on a 3.2 metre run and the laminate is a tad over 3 metres long......... Thanks for the thoughts on the ally extrusion, Jason. I've used them a couple of times but they aren't half a faff to install especially where there's loads of boxing in. One of the problems is where the customer goes nuts and decided that they want the window reveals, etc done in laminate "because you've got so much over" . My last kitchen install had some 13 electrical cut-outs which made the laminate install a complete PITA, especially after the threads in one of the wall box stripped and I had to resort to knocking it out and replacing in situ (anyone know a way to reverse Gripfill?)  Scrit |
|
|
|
Post by duncan on Apr 30, 2008 21:07:43 GMT
Scrit,
You can try fishing line and sort of "saw" it apart - need to be able to get to both sides though. Have used it with success when removing mirrors.
Duncan
|
|
|
|
Post by promhandicam on May 1, 2008 12:54:32 GMT
how about fixing it to a piece of 12mm mr mdf and then fixing that to the wall. perhaps you could do all the cut outs etc in the mdf and then 'veneer' it with the laminate and then use a bearing guided router cutter to finish off the cut outs. the only problems would be that you would loose a bit of depth and you would have to finish the ends but I would have thought that it would work.
Steve
|
|
mono
New Member
Posts: 8
|
Post by mono on May 6, 2008 22:31:06 GMT
Late to this topic but mihgt be relevant.
I've done quite a contemporary looking splashback successfully with formica on birch ply. Sanded and marine-varnished the edges. Looked great. Wonky walls: Caulking smallish gaps I found to be fine.
No, all my formica has come curled up and ready to pounce! Worst stuff to handle and cut tho i've found is the colour core range by Formica - beware!
Mono
|
|
|
|
Post by Quarter-Sawn on May 7, 2008 6:46:29 GMT
mind you, the important thing always is to get a proper plasterer paul That's one of those things I found to be almost impossible! I never fitted a kitchen and I am thinking of fitting my own. Or should I call in the experts? I don't want to 'buy' a kitchen from one of these big concerns, who offer money off if you let them use your kitchen as a 'show-place'. I see too many sob-stories on 'Watchdog'... My kitchen is massive; at least 9 feet square! (Missus thinks it's big enough and doesn't want to extend into the utility rooom!) cheers.  QS |
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on May 7, 2008 9:57:17 GMT
major problem with making your own is the economics it is perhaps better to buy the carcases and make your own doors and drawer fronts. i agree finding a plasterer is a pita, maybe look for a colonial ie aussie or kiwi or even africaans they seem more used to square houses than english people otherwise frame the room to be more square, and then fix boarding over that. searco now do ready assemble carcases so all you then have to do is join. otherwise the thicker b&q carcases ain't too bad just replace the screws and fixings with grown up ones ;D paul |
|
|
|
Post by Scrit on May 7, 2008 11:15:02 GMT
I never fitted a kitchen and I am thinking of fitting my own. Or should I call in the experts? The question is really how much of the installation do you need/want to do? A good kitchen fitter really is multi-skilled; the job requires carpentry/joinery skills and tool kit, basic plumbing (water and wastes), probably some electrical work as well (running cables, installing back boxes, etc - the final connection and testing must be done by a Part P certified electrician) and maybe there's some gas appliances to be disconnected/connected-up which will require a Corgi-certified gas man. In addition the kitchen has to be planned so that it works. Whilst making your own kitchen from scratch might be an option I think you'd probably be better off buying-in stock carcasses and resizing them (as required) then making your own doors, etc if you really want that "hand-made" look. If you don't want cto build your own might I suggest taking a look at Howdens? Their carcasses are good quality and they don't stint on the fittings, the only downer is that they've gone over to thin backs (they used to sell units with 15/18mm thick ones). The other plus of Howdens is that their standard worktops are 625mm (?) wide which can make all the difference when scribing to wonky walls. Finally do you have the required toolkit to install? That means having two spirit levels (1000mm + 400mm say), hammer drill, cordless screwdrivers, 1/2in plunge router, worktop jig, decent jigsaw, etc. Don't underestimate the size of kit you'll need (mine is more than 300 tools including my plumbing kit) Oddly enough I find really small kitchens more difficult to fit as there's so little space to work in. Scrit |
|
|
|
Post by Dave S on May 7, 2008 12:33:56 GMT
Scrit is certainly right about the multi-skilled nature of kitchen fitting. There is also likely to be plastering, wall tiling and possibly floor tiling involved as well. So there are quite a few challenges, aside from the carcases themselves.
The other thing to bear in mind is the time - can you afford to be without a kitchen for the duration of the work. The two kitchens I fitted for myself were back when I was single, and my 'diy skills' are far better then my woodworking skills, but it was still a major undertaking and took quite some time.
Certainly possible, though. As far as ready-made carcasses are concerned, I seem to recall that JasonB and Mailee both recently suggested sources elsewhere.
Dave
|
|
|
|
Post by Quarter-Sawn on May 8, 2008 7:03:11 GMT
Maybe I am lucky... My local 'timber-yard' will cut panels to size on their dimension saw. (Wonderful beast of a machine it is too!)
I take my drawing along, buy the sheet, then take the invoice and the drawing to the 'cutting station'. The guy then goes and collects the sheet, cuts it then and there, consulting as he goes. The senior machinist thinks my Sketch-up plans are the greatest (Compared to old envelopes I guess!) and I get the personal treatment, for the price of a pint or two.
So I am going to make my cases . One step removed from flat-pack, but I get to join them as I want to (as per Paul Levine, but using biscuits instead of a rebated joint.) and I know it's a square box to start with.
Then the fun starts, because I considered lining out the room to get plumb walls, but it's small enough as it is, so I'll have to work to it.
My main worry is how much plaster comes away, when I remove the tiles that are there now!
;D
Regards...
QS.
|
|
|
|
Post by Quarter-Sawn on May 8, 2008 7:34:40 GMT
I never fitted a kitchen and I am thinking of fitting my own. Or should I call in the experts? The question is really how much of the installation do you need/want to do? A good kitchen fitter really is multi-skilled; the job requires carpentry/joinery skills and tool kit, basic plumbing (water and wastes), probably some electrical work as well (running cables, installing back boxes, etc - the final connection and testing must be done by a Part P certified electrician) and maybe there's some gas appliances to be disconnected/connected-up which will require a Corgi-certified gas man. In addition the kitchen has to be planned so that it works. Whilst making your own kitchen from scratch might be an option I think you'd probably be better off buying-in stock carcasses and resizing them (as required) then making your own doors, etc if you really want that "hand-made" look. If you don't want cto build your own might I suggest taking a look at Howdens? Their carcasses are good quality and they don't stint on the fittings, the only downer is that they've gone over to thin backs (they used to sell units with 15/18mm thick ones). The other plus of Howdens is that their standard worktops are 625mm (?) wide which can make all the difference when scribing to wonky walls. Finally do you have the required toolkit to install? That means having two spirit levels (1000mm + 400mm say), hammer drill, cordless screwdrivers, 1/2in plunge router, worktop jig, decent jigsaw, etc. Don't underestimate the size of kit you'll need (mine is more than 300 tools including my plumbing kit) Oddly enough I find really small kitchens more difficult to fit as there's so little space to work in. Scrit I know where you are coming from Scrit, but I am having second thoughts because my tool kit doesn't quite cover those requirements. Although, my kitchen really is only about 9 feet square, so do I really need specialised levels for levelling two worktops? I could hire laser levels and other measuring devices that I don't already have if necessary. I don't have to join any worktops as SWIMBO wants a roll-away Butcher-block cupboard beside the oven. I thought about using the Triton under cover, in my yard and then bringing the cupboards into the kitchen for fitting on ready-assembled base-frames. As for being without a kitchen: I already laid the floor. SWIMBO doesn't want the oven moved and won't have modern hobs etc. So I just have to buy a new gas cooker and have it installed by BG. Which means connecting it to a flexible pipe with a tap on it. That could even be done last in fact. The most involved job is replacing the sink unit, which I hope will take me just a day. There are stop taps on the pipes, so no cutting there and again flexible copper tube is already in place. No worktops need to be joined, and I have a willing and useful Son so, we shall see! Regards and thanks. QS. |
|
|
|
Post by Scrit on May 8, 2008 18:10:58 GMT
So I am going to make my cases . One step removed from flat-pack, but I get to join them as I want to (as per Paul Levine, but using biscuits instead of a rebated joint.) and I know it's a square box to start with. OK, but I'd still screw the back in place using black carcass screws rather than join it in any other way. Experience has taught me that in the average kitchen these days there are always 3 or more cabinets where the back will need to be removed either partly or completely (even if it's just to locate a switched outlet inside the unit) The last kitchen I put in was 6 base units, 6 upper units and 3 larder-size units plus a whole bevy of built-ins. That kitchen had cut outs in 4 of the units so I was very happy to be able to get the backs out easily. Then the fun starts, because I considered lining out the room to get plumb walls, but it's small enough as it is, so I'll have to work to it. You don't have to batten out. It's possible to dot and dab the walls with plasterboard adhesive then literally stick plasterboard onto the dabs (a larger scale version of Pink Grip or No More Nails). Use taper edge boards, scrim the joints and then skim with drywall jointing compound (for which you'll need a taping knife) then sand off (again with a drywall sander - less than a tenner) and you can paint the walls without ever having to plaster conventionally. This is best done with 1/2in or thicker plasterboard and you may find that you need special fixings to hold the upper cabs in place and that it's best to hang them on full width cleats to spread the load somewhat ...so do I really need specialised levels for levelling two worktops? I could hire laser levels and other measuring devices that I don't already have if necessary. The name is a misnomer in some ways as laser levels aren't for levelling! They are actually meant to show things like a datum line around a room and plumb markes, etc. So in fact you need a couple of old fashioned spirit levels - you use two on every carcass being instalkled, the short one iis used to check for front to rear level, the long one for side to side. The reason you have two is that it becomes a PITA to constantly swap a single one around when you are levelling up the feeet. Scrit |
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on May 8, 2008 19:14:24 GMT
and one thing every body forgets when installing kitchens is to have some knee support, like the pads they sell for working in the garden. makes it much easier on your poor old knees ;D paul |
|
|
|
Post by Scrit on May 8, 2008 19:39:57 GMT
and one thing every body forgets when installing kitchens is to have some knee support, like the pads they sell for working in the garden. makes it much easier on your poor old knees ;D Too right Paul! I for one know that both Woodsmith and myslef have suffered in the past from what my doctor calls "plumbers knee" (as opposed to housemaid'd knee - but in fact exactly the same). The other thing about installing kitchens is the amount of time I always seem to spend lying on the floor, on my side fiddling around beneath cabinets. But maybe I shouldn't be going there Scrit |
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on May 8, 2008 19:51:36 GMT
what part of made to measure did you not understand scrit ;D as someone who has to think about these kind of things both for myself and in the past, i am amazed how many people forget when installing things that sometime later it is going to go wrong, and you will need to fix it, so why not put it at a sensible height paul |
|
|
|
Post by Scrit on May 8, 2008 20:03:25 GMT
Sadly, Paul, plumbing stuff invariably runs downwards towards the floor. That's how plumbers seem to like it (and if it's an IKEA kitchen they have b*gger all choice in the matter do to the lack of service voids at the backs of the cabinets!). The other thing, though is the to-ing and fro-ing and general messing around you need to do to get an integrated clothes- or dish-washer into position because of the water, waste and power connections seemingly always trying to jam themselves between the back of the machine and the wall in just the right way to ensure that the applied false door front ends up projecting 5mm beyond the worktop edge. Why can't designers give us something better?  Scrit |
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on May 8, 2008 20:37:24 GMT
i must agree you do kind of wonder why they design cabinets that only leave you enough room for a finger nail to move the bloody built-in into the other recent one is trying to get an under the counter fridge that is 500 wide or narrower since when did they all start being 550 wide??? but then if they can't design decent dust control into power tools, then why would they bother with making white goods actually usable paul |
|
|
|
Post by Quarter-Sawn on May 10, 2008 6:13:05 GMT
Thanks for the benefit of your experience Scrit. Everything noted and as for fixing 'flying cupboards', I am building in a large shelf first, with steel bearers and will be placing the cupboards on that. Then things are easily moved around at the whim of SWIMBO! And for Engineer, I also bought a pair of knee pads the other day, being prone to creaks and cracks when I kneel! But it was good of you to consider it! Happy in my ignorance. 'cos ignorance is bliss! Thanks again QS |
|
