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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 19:38:22 GMT
Thanks to Colin C who knew i was after a horizontal grinder . www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKW500Around £65 with postage its cheaper than D and M @ £120 . I already have a record vertical grinder but i dont like the concave they put on the blade , to me it just seems wrong  So what are peoples thoughts on the concave v's flat cutting edges ? |
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Post by nickw on Dec 10, 2007 19:43:37 GMT
A hollow grind makes the following stages so much easier.
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 19:47:46 GMT
Less metal to hone ? That begs another question , why bother with a hone if the cutting edge is sharp to start with .
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Post by nickw on Dec 10, 2007 19:53:26 GMT
'Cos there's sharp, and then there's properly sharp, which you cannot achieve without honing - by whichever methods suits you best.
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Post by Alf on Dec 10, 2007 20:00:28 GMT
I voted hollow, but really it depends. Mortise chisels, f'rinstance, don't really want to be hollow. For free-hand honing I find it a thousand times easier with a hollow grind 'cos it's really easy to register the bevel on the stone - viz: here. As for why bother to hone when the cutting edge is sharp to start with - well don't! Of course the definition of "sharp" depends.  As does the definition of grinding. Using a hand cranked grinder for grinding I see it as a coarse metal removal tool - and the edge is really gonna need honing afterwards. Using a horizontal "grinder" like that, depending on stone grade and ultimate use for the edge, well you might not need to go any further. Don't think I've ever used an edge straight off mine though, but then I'm picky about sharp. One thing to watch out when using that sort of grinder btw, is the fact the outside of the wheel is going round faster than the inside, so the rate of removal varies. For best results don't treat it as a "no brainer" but use some care to spread the effects of the grind, as well as wear on the wheel. Dressing the surface of the wheel regularly to keep it flat is no bad thing either. Cheers, Alf |
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Post by Dave S on Dec 10, 2007 20:02:35 GMT
Tony Baloney over the other side had the Rexon version of this and didn't think highly of it, as I recall. Make of that what you will Funnily enough, I saw a Rexon version 2nd hand on Ebay earlier - starting bid was £35 with £15 P&P !! Interesting to see if anyone falls for it!! Dave |
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Post by Alf on Dec 10, 2007 20:14:31 GMT
That's the one I've got, Dave. Does a good job on chisel backs; with my chisel problem it's probably already paid for itself.  Possibly being unable to eliminate some hand/eye coordination from the equation doesn't suit some of the engineering fraternity... Cheers, Alf |
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Post by engineerone on Dec 10, 2007 20:25:05 GMT
blimey jason if you and colin had let me know, i could let you have a barely used draper version of this kind of tool. mine's blue but i prefer the tormek, so you are welcome to arrange a collection or our mutual friend can arrange the movement for a mutually agreed price. mind you i now agree with both nick and alf, as well as colin that there is sharp and there is sharp  paul |
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 20:48:07 GMT
Thats always the way Paul . Colin ......  ;D Are you saying concave makes it sharper or easier to sharpen ? I cant see it making it sharper myself as you are honing a "flat" edge onto a concave to make it sharper . |
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Post by engineerone on Dec 10, 2007 21:02:11 GMT
i think if you check everything, what the concave edge does is allow you more room to manouvre when honing to a really sharp edge, and means it takes longer before you have to regrind. take the view that you are going to hone a slightly higher edge, and that you can continue to add a new secondary edge for a lot longer if the primary edge is concave than if it is flat. hth paul pm me if |
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 21:10:28 GMT
Paul , i was taught to sharpen on a horizontal oil stone and the rule was that you can put a honing edge on by hand but it's not actually needed . Maybe this was because they didnt want a million differant honing edges by every other apprentice Also the work i do is heavy work with chisels . I think the smallest job i do is cutting out hinges , most of the time im cutting out mortice holes so i know whats sharp and whats not I think what i'm trying to say is why leave room to get it right when you can get it right first time but that is just my opinion and i'm not really sure why i have this opinion |
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Post by engineerone on Dec 10, 2007 21:56:07 GMT
given what i perceive to be your age, jason i guess that most of your tutors had not studied much of the modern sharpening advice. when i got back into working with wood, i read too much, but did find that cleaning up my marples on an oil stone was a real pita. so i moved onto other ideas, before settling like so many others on the tormek as the first step, before then learning from colin c about extra sharp which means diamond or water stones after wards to make it even sharper. i found the horizontal wheel difficult to control and the water control was very bad. paul |
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 22:23:42 GMT
I can see that point of view Paul but what Colin has shown you is how to put a flat cutting edge on the tool . If you can keep a tool with one edge then is that not perfect ? I think it is and the amount of abuse my chisels get they need all the metal behind them they can get ;D P.S you need any more oak MDF ? It's getting in my way again  |
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Post by colincott on Dec 10, 2007 22:24:51 GMT
Thats always the way Paul . Colin ...... ;D Are you saying concave makes it sharper or easier to sharpen ? I cant see it making it sharper myself as you are honing a "flat" edge onto a concave to make it sharper . Hang on Jason, when did I become a mind reader ( I say it all the time to SWMBO ), it was a little cheaper than D and M for a start . Try to help some people  |
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Post by engineerone on Dec 10, 2007 22:31:56 GMT
a qualified yes to the oak, but i need a new chauffeur at the moment, can't get it on my bike ;D as for the sharpening i found that although i had thought mine sharp, after colin showed my i could see why they were not all that i had thought.  paul |
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 22:31:58 GMT
It's all me me me with you isnt it Colin , you dont think about other people do you . thats your problem Colin , what about me , what about us ! EH ! What about us Colin . It's all me me me with you ! ;D
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Post by engineerone on Dec 10, 2007 22:33:11 GMT
turn turn turn jason, it will bite your bun if you are not careful ;D paul |
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Post by colincott on Dec 10, 2007 22:37:52 GMT
It's all me me me with you isnt it Colin , you dont think about other people do you . thats your problem Colin , what about me , what about us ! EH ! What about us Colin . It's all me me me with you ! ;D Sorry Jason  What can I say after that but I will try not to do it again < slaps wrist >  |
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 22:40:02 GMT
;D Colin knows im messing about .... well i hope he does  |
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Post by evergreen on Dec 10, 2007 23:07:42 GMT
Hi Guys
I've been quite interested in one of those Dakota horizontal grinders but the Dakota brand doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Perhaps it's just my predjudice. Does anyone know anything good or bad about the brand from experience?
Regards.
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Post by jfc on Dec 10, 2007 23:14:50 GMT
Is it not the same one D and M are selling under another name ? They are the same tool just badged up with a name .
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Post by jfc on Dec 11, 2007 15:54:08 GMT
Well mine turned up today and oooohhh i like it . I managed to get an old 1 1/2" Sorby back to a nice flat aswell as a 1/2 " and a 1/4" in just under 1/2 a hour . They where in a bit of a state Its nice to be able to flat the back on the stone aswell on the older chisels . |
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As does the definition of grinding. Using a hand cranked grinder for grinding I see it as a coarse metal removal tool - and the edge is really gonna need honing afterwards. Using a horizontal "grinder" like that, depending on stone grade and ultimate use for the edge, well you might not need to go any further. Don't think I've ever used an edge straight off mine though, but then I'm picky about sharp.
Possibly being unable to eliminate some hand/eye coordination from the equation doesn't suit some of the engineering fraternity... 
