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Post by sainty on Jun 2, 2008 19:48:38 GMT
Am I the only person that doesn't get on with pocket hole joinery? I have terrible trouble with alignment, in fact I don't think that it has ever worked for me. I have the Axminster version, is the Kreg version any different? I'm quite happy to believe it's me or my technique but it's just so frustrating. The concept is great and every time I get the thing out I think this will be the time that I crack it. It never is though.  ?? Rgds Sainty |
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Post by tusses on Jun 2, 2008 20:08:59 GMT
I think I got my pocket hole jig from screwfix about 7 years ago ... its still unopened !
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Post by thatsnotafestool on Jun 2, 2008 20:09:45 GMT
By alignment, do you mean that the two joints shift when you tighten up? If so, join the club. The clamps are next to useless for holding the two pieces of work together while you tighten up.
But...persevere..I worked out alternative ways of holding the stock/holding it against an immovable object etc etc that in the end it did work out OK.
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Post by jfc on Jun 2, 2008 20:15:13 GMT
Not a fan of it myself as i think there are far better ways to join something but that is my opinion . Sometimes i may need to use this method to get a fixing but i dont use the jig i bought about ten years ago , just a flat bit angled and a pilot hole . .
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Post by sainty on Jun 2, 2008 20:16:54 GMT
By alignment, do you mean that the two joints shift when you tighten up? If so, join the club. The clamps are next to useless for holding the two pieces of work together while you tighten up. But...persevere..I worked out alternative ways of holding the stock/holding it against an immovable object etc etc that in the end it did work out OK. That's it. I can get it to work if I clamp in about 7 dimensions. Biscuits dont work, dominos ( ;D) dont work, in fact it makes you appreciate the pulling power of the screws Rgds Sainty |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Jun 2, 2008 20:20:17 GMT
Well yes, why buy the gadget - esp if it doesn't work  What's wrong with clamping or otherwise pinning the peices together, putting in a pilot hole with a drill, countersink if you want and wang in a screw? Thats how they used to do it - on cheap furniture. It's a crude bodge joint anyway. cheers Jacob PS just had a look at this. Can't see the point - the joint they show at top left is exactly what you get with the above method, or Jason's flat bit, both faster and cheaper. PPS if you are happy with a bodged joint why not use a few nails and a blob of glue, - cheaper and even quicker. The trick is to get the nail points just through and then locate the pieces together - no clamps required. |
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Post by sainty on Jun 2, 2008 20:33:11 GMT
Well yes, why buy the gadget - esp if it doesn't work What's wrong with clamping or otherwise pinning the peices together, putting in a pilot hole with a drill, countersink if you want and wang in a screw? Thats how they used to do it - on cheap furniture. It's a crude joint anyway. cheers Jacob ;D ;D ;D I have a picture in my mind of you Jacob, sitting in your front room, fire roaring in the background, posting to the forum on your laptop by candlelight! ;D ;D  (please don't tell me I'm wrong and spoil the image) To be honest I usually do resort to "countersink and wang". Crude or not it has its place. By using the pocket hole thought you are not screwing into end grain and therefore it's significantly stronger so I would like to know if its the system that has the weakness of me! rgds Sainty |
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Post by jfc on Jun 2, 2008 20:49:56 GMT
Your not screwing into end grain but you are using end grain to hold the screw , that is why i think pocket holes are floored and only use this method if i cant use any other way of fixing .
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Post by tusses on Jun 2, 2008 20:51:13 GMT
norm like s pocket hole technology ;D
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Post by sainty on Jun 2, 2008 20:57:11 GMT
Your not screwing into end grain but you are using end grain to hold the screw , that is why i think pocket holes are floored and only use this method if i cant use any other way of fixing . If you are using p/h for carcass construction you drill through end grain into cross grain. This is especially good for MDF, if you know what I mead about MDF grain! (or have I missed your point?) Rgds Sainty |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Jun 2, 2008 21:01:08 GMT
The pilot hole is through the end-grain obliquely, gadget or no gadget. It's the same joint - you can do it without a gadget.
cheers
Jacob
PS
Pretty close actually. Fire's going nicely, just chucked on some more mdf (best thing to do with it IMHO), I've been sitting here for some time and its gone dark! Hadn't noticed cos my Macbook keyboard lights up automatically when the light goes down enough. ;D
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Post by jfc on Jun 2, 2008 21:16:46 GMT
Yup got you on the MDF grain but there is not alot of grain there .
Pocket holes just swap the end grain problem from one part to the other part as i can see it . They use a small area to hold a fixing where as other methods use a larger area . Pocket holes even reduce the fixing area as you are fixing at an angle .
The main structure in MDF as i see it is on the surface so fixing in the middle of the two as wide but as thin as you can get is going to be the best option .
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Post by sainty on Jun 2, 2008 21:18:02 GMT
The pilot hole is through the end-grain obliquely, gadget or no gadget. It's the same joint - you can do it without a gadget. I disagree, the strength gained from fixing into cross grain far outweighs that of fixing into end grain. rgds Sainty |
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Post by staffie on Jun 3, 2008 14:13:56 GMT
Sainty,
I use a 0.6 to 0.8 mm shim under the part with the pocket holes, when tightening it pulls the joint flush.
I have recently started to drill pilot holes into the receiving piece using an long 2mm drill bit, this negates the use of the shims as the piece pulls together flush anyway.
I use this method mostly for constructing face frames, but also find it useful for other items like painted pieces where the plug can be hidden.
Regards
Jock
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Post by chippy1970 on Jun 3, 2008 20:34:01 GMT
I bought the Kreg jig the one thats around £50 with the clamp and I think its great you just gotta know how to use it. I made some mahogany face frames with it awhile back and even used it to fix the face frames to mdf carcases I do glue everything as well. When used properly I managed quiet easily to join all the face frame joints together perfectly flush every time.   |
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Post by sainty on Jun 3, 2008 21:02:17 GMT
Chippy1970, I bought the Kreg jig the one thats around £50 with the clamp and I think its great you just gotta know how to use it. Whats the secret? The thought of offsetting the pieces seems a bit hit and miss to me. One thing that I have tried is to not over tighten the joint but it's got to be tight. I might have another play tomorrow. rgds Sainty |
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Post by jfc on Jun 3, 2008 22:09:25 GMT
But you are using end grain as the anchor point rather than the fixing point .
But then it is non structual work so i dont suppose it matters as long as it holds untill the glue dries .
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Post by modernist on Jun 3, 2008 22:40:56 GMT
I bought the Kreg jig the one thats around £50 with the clamp and I think its great you just gotta know how to use it. I made some mahogany face frames with it awhile back and even used it to fix the face frames to mdf carcases I do glue everything as well. When used properly I managed quiet easily to join all the face frame joints together perfectly flush every time. Nice looking units; I like the PH fixing for the face frame but its a bit unusual seeing the stiles going through the top and bottom rails. How did that go together? Brian |
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Post by mailee on Jun 3, 2008 23:16:37 GMT
It is just my opinion but I have never really considered Pocket hole joinery to be serious joinery and would much rather use a M&T or biscuit joint. It also take the fun out of making a joint too. I do not own one of the jigs but have tried one before and to me it just feels like cheating. As I say though that is just my opinion. |
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Post by Dave S on Jun 3, 2008 23:27:54 GMT
.... it just feels like cheating. Many have said that about biscuits too, though.. Personally I've never used p/h and never been tempted. Dave |
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Post by chippy1970 on Jun 4, 2008 18:29:25 GMT
Thanks modernist the way the face frame is put together is just how Kreg recommend that you orientate your joints its only the same way that doors are made. The face frames went together so easy for my first Kreg jig job, I have been a chippy for a long time though. I also used it a few months back when I was fitting some solid maple architrave, to screw the mitres together from behind more solid than just pinning. By the way the doors are proper mortice and tenon I didn't pocket hole them together  . Sainty, I just put the clamp across the join while screwing it together. I think what you are talking about is the odd joint when you cannot clamp, then you have problems but if you can guess how far to offset the joint so it lines up when screwed then it works. |
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Post by jonnyd on Jun 4, 2008 22:02:52 GMT
I use the PH jig extensively for attaching face frames to carcases as in chippys photo but use dominos for positive location of the frame on the carcase and everything gets glued. I dont pocket screw the frames themselves they are just dominoed and glued together. I have a batch of about 40 face frames going through the workshop at the moment and i find the pocket hole approach really speeds things up.
Jon
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Post by jetset on Jun 4, 2008 23:20:47 GMT
I used the Kreg R3 for the first time today and I like it. Simple face frame suff but all held together well.
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Post by Scrit on Jun 6, 2008 16:33:53 GMT
I'd say there are several pitfalls with pocket hole joinery. Firstly there are jigs and jigs. I've got the Trend one, but the quality is only so-so against the Kreg version. But then you'd expect that as Kreg invented the system. I also find that the drill bits Trend supply are far too prone to breaking. In terms of drilling I've found a nice fast air drill (mine's a 4,500 rpm job which cost all of £30) works far better than any other type of drill. Poorest results come from a cordless with a battery nearing the end of its' life - they're also the worst in terms of breakages. Another point to bear in mind is materials. Kreg jigs were originally developed with birch and hardwood plywoods in mind, not chipboard or MDF, and that's what they work best on IMHO. They will work on MFC and veneered chipboard using an appropriate coarse thread screws, but I've never had much success with MDF. I find that the joints are quite weak and can break if handled too much. Lastly fixing. You simply can't beat the Kreg original clamps (or Face Clamps as Kreg call them). The Trend version is rather poor in comparison. Kreg even do an even better jig which mounts permanently onto the bench. I've used these and they're well worth considering. Personally I only use pocket hole screws if I'm building a cabinet (such as a kitchen cabinet) where the end panel is visible (such as the end of run and where cost and/or space constraints mean that I cannot apply a separate gable end panel (i.e. a "cheap" job). I do however find them rather useful for attaching face frames in in-frame kitchens and bedrooms. Otherwise the quick and dirty stuff can be done faster, as accurately and stronger using plain, old fashioned black phosphated carcass screws and a few dobs of glue Scrit |
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(please don't tell me I'm wrong and spoil the image)
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