Anatomy of a spindle moulder ?

[tusses]

well, I picked my little spindle moulder up today.

Never having seen one before, I'd like to know how it ticks.

If anyone can explain what each bit does that'd be great !



I have some spare spindles, so I guess they just screw in and out ?

I have 5/8" 3/4" and one that takes router bits



the fence and guard are pretty self explanatory - each side of the fence moves front and back, and towards and away from the cutter.





the table tilts both ways - but onle has a scale for tilting down, so I guess it should only be used tilting down ? ? ?




it has a sliding dovetail mitre slot with holes. I guess these are for clamp downs ?




cutters ... I have 4 different types that I can tell, the 1st is easy - router cutters can be used with one of the spindles. another spindle I think he said and take whitehead cutters ? 3/4 ?

there is this one that looks like it should fit a 1" spindle, and it has a bushing to reduce the hole so it fits the 5/8" spindle with this machine




there is this type of cutter




and finaly slot/grove cutters that look like they can stack on a spindle with various spacers




which cutter is the 'french' one I have heared worrying things about ?

thanks for any help

[Scrit]

The French head has a slot through it and the cutters are flat. You can't see them when they are running which is why people used to remove chunks of fingers with them. The French top piece is the one on the left:



Slotted collars are notorious for shedding cutters which is why we banned them more than 30 years ago, that's these things:



On bigger machines if they ran loose shedding the cutter can and did result in operator injury and sometimes death (at 8,500 rpm a 3in cutter has a peripheral speed 76mph)

This is the old-style Whitehill block:



They've also been banned because they're non-limiter and the design means that when old the jaws can spread slightly making it easire for them to shed a cutter

On a 3in block at 8500 rpm you'll have a peripheral speed of circa 75mph (or 6670 ft/min). A slightly larger spindle moulder running a 4in block at 7,500 rpm (i.e. a "standard" 2-speed machine's upper speed) will have a peripheral speed of 89mph (or 7850 ft/min) whilst a 5in rebate block at the same spindle speed is doing 111mph (or 9812 ft/min). The ideal cutting speed is about 10,000 surface ft/min and that's why a full-size spindle runnig a cutter block often gives a better finish that the router (1in cutter @ 24,000 rpm = 71mph or 6,280 ft/min)

Scrit

[jfc]

And these are legal blocks








seeing as you are starting out it would be a good idea to start building up a legal collection of blocks and cutters .

[wizer]

Which bit cuts the wheat?

[tusses]

yep - I'll be keeping my eye out for some legal blocks at the right price.

looks like I'll have to make up a spindle top to fit the larger euroblock type arbor sizes

[jfc]

If you look at the green block in the pic i posted you will see a black thing on the top . Thats a top hat to reduce a 30mm block down to my 1" spindle . About £12 a pair .

[jfc]

Legal ( un-gaurded )Tenoning blocks .









The box covering the back of the moulder is a Scrit gaurd

[tusses]

Aug 23, 2008 6:51:43 GMT jfc said:

If you look at the green block in the pic i posted you will see a black thing on the top . Thats a top hat to reduce a 30mm block down to my 1" spindle . About £12 a pair .

ah ! thats a top hat scrit mentioned them, but didn't recomend them for such a jump from 3/4" upwards.

I have 5/8 and 3/4 spindles at the moment. My dad has a lathe, so the option is there to make a 30mm spindle if it come to that.

I am noticing that ebay america ( ) has new shaper cutters with a 3/4 bore some have the chip limiters some look real scary !

I've not seen any yet that you can make your own knives up tho.

I'm off to a VW show in a bit, but I'll keep looking when I come back tomorrow.

[tusses]

I presume these type are to be avoided

[cadas]

As scrit has suggested, look at the Kity range of tooling, they come with a 1" dia hole and because their machines are aimed squarely at the diy user, they are designed for lower power machines.

A good source to try is ebay France where you can get a lot secondhand.

[modernist]

It all looks bl**dy lethal to me

thank goodness I didn't start moulding until the 1980's. Even so I still had the odd "brown pants" moment like when I ran off the end of the lead in fence on a curved rail and took a full bite. Even with the limiters it threw 18" of 4 x 3 accross the shop and straight through the plasterboard!

Be careful and read a few books first.

Cheers

Brian

[mel]

Aug 23, 2008 20:59:33 GMT modernist said:

Be careful and read a few books first.

Cheers

Brian

this is the problem , hes been reading too many books ;D

i dont think that you will be able to run a euro block {as light as they are} successfully on this machine , over to scrit .

looks as dangerous as a stacked dado to me

whats your nearest hospital ? in case we need to come and visit you . coventry walsgrave i assume

[Scrit]

THROW AWAY KNACKERED, RUSTY, WORN-OUT, ILLEGAL OLD SPINDLE MOULDER TOOLING - IT IS DANGEROUS!

Aug 23, 2008 7:54:22 GMT tusses said:

ah ! thats a top hat scrit mentioned them, but didn't recomend them for such a jump from 3/4" upwards.

Yes. There's really an issue regarding how big you can go with a top hat. If you need to go 3/4in to 30mm then I'd say you'll need more support than a pair of top hats will give you. In that case you'll need a reduced bush 30mm diameter x 3/4in bore - and it will need to be accurate! A 30mm spindle might be a better bet, though I'd be cautious about trying to go too far. The machine was designed by a reputable firm with nearly 100 years experience at the game when it was new and they saw fit to limit it to a 3/4in spindle (they didn't offer 1in or 1-1/4in top pieces). That should tell you that they were trying to limit the size of cutter you could run.....

Aug 23, 2008 7:54:22 GMT tusses said:

I am noticing that ebay america ( ) has new shaper cutters with a 3/4 bore some have the chip limiters some look real scary !

Spindle moulders used to have a reputation as the most dangerous machines in the shop. This was in the main down to the tooling, i.e. French cutters, square blocks and slotted collars, all of which were accidents waiting to happen for two reasons, first the propensity of these types of tooling to throw cutters, secondly the lack of anti-kickback/chip limitation. They were banned in the 1974 Woodworking Regs. There were a second set of less dangerous alternatives, things like the original 1930s designed Whitehill "safety" block (which you have) and brazed tip tooling like the Rockwell cutter above. Original Whitehill blocks (not the modern Euro pinned types as shown below)



can and do open up with age and can shed cutters when this occurs, also the threads go on them as well. Any tooling not designed with chip limitation will produce significantly greater injury in the case of an accident than limiter tooling, partly because the careless/tired/untrained can easily over feed. For that reason non-limiter tooling and tooling without cutter security have also been banned. The result of this is something like an 80% reduction in spindle moulder accidents in the UK - Americans on the other hand still have accident levels about where ours were 30 years ago. That's why it's a good idea to scrap old, illegal (non-compliant) tooling. The choice is yours, but as a beginner surely you're better off not pushing the envelope too far at the start. Of course the other advantage of limiter tooling is that it's all but impossible to over feed it, so there's much less danger of kickback. See here for details about what constitutes legal tooling (and that's the only type you'll buy in the UK these days)

Aug 23, 2008 7:54:22 GMT tusses said:

I've not seen any yet that you can make your own knives up tho.

That requires a Euro block (£50 and upwards) and a profile grinder (circa £3k and upwards). Most hobby woodworkers find they can get by with the 130-odd cutter sets (about 250 profiles) produced by KWO, CMT et al from £8 and upwards a pair (or double that if you buy cutters and limiters at the same time). See here for details

Aug 23, 2008 20:59:33 GMT modernist said:

Be careful and read a few books first.

Or at least the HSE leaflet on the subject which offers some very sound advice

One of the things is not to try running tooling which is too big or heavy for the machine. If you do you might end up bending the arbor - and I've seen 1-1/4in arbors on industrial nmachines which were bent so it is possible. To start with I'd work on the premise that if the block is too big to retract below ther table into the opening, then it's probably too big for the machine (and just how big is the opening?) That probably limits you to a 70 or 75mm block (circa 90mm with projection). I'd also suggest that you look for aluminium alloy blocks as opposed to steel on the grounds that you don't have a lot of power (and upgrading to a bigger motor carries other risks). Someone else has suggested Kity blocks may be the way to go, and a few Italian makers do produce blocks of this type in small diameters.

Before you come back with more questions please go off and read and digest the two HSE references I've given you above. They are about how to choose and use stuff safely. I'd also suggest that you ignore American publications on the subject of spindle moulders (or shapers as they call them) as their advice is often downright bloody dangerous in my experience - like that insane, stupid video I published a link to recently.

Scrit

[jasonb]

A good source to try is ebay France where you can get a lot secondhand.

Don't point him that way, my first kity took french type cutters, it would be safer not to be able to get any knives for that slotted spindle Also I don't think thay made the small blocks with limiters.

Jason

[Scrit]

Aug 24, 2008 7:23:09 GMT jasonb said:

Also I don't think thay made the small blocks with limiters.

There is a 75mm diameter limiter block made Italy for machines like the Zinken and Kity and I believe it takes limiters, too. Problem is that it's not readily available and I reckon anything bigger won't fit the machine (the smallest Whitehill block these days is 96mm diameter, so a 125mm opening would be required to accommodate the tooling projection)

Scrit

[mrgrimsdale]

Thing about Tusses's antique spindle bits is you do see just how versatile the old methods were. But dangerous. So we have lost something in the process, but saved a few fingers.
But I maintain (sorry scrit) that it's perfectly possible to make your own cutters at little cost, with simple kit, and comply with regs at the same time. The only prob is that although you can get an exact profile by hand held grinding, it's a problem getting exactly the right "tilt" and often the same profile needs to be tilted slightly for a particular job - if you are into exact period replication as I am. The answer here is a tilting spindle. Lot cheaper than a profile cutter!


cheers
Jacob
PS these comments not for the novice.
But some woodworkers seem to do more metal work nowadays what with all that tool fettling and fiddling about!

[Scrit]

Aug 24, 2008 7:36:07 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

But I maintain (sorry scrit) that it's perfectly possible to make your own cutters at little cost, with simple kit, and comply with regs at the same time.

But as a beginner with little woodworking experience are you going to need that, especially when there are around 250 standard profiles available off the shelf?

Scrit

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 24, 2008 7:58:36 GMT Scrit said:

Aug 24, 2008 7:36:07 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

But I maintain (sorry scrit) that it's perfectly possible to make your own cutters at little cost, with simple kit, and comply with regs at the same time.

But as a beginner with little woodworking experience are you going to need that, especially when there are around 250 standard profiles available off the shelf?

Scrit

As a beginner I agree. Not the way to go.
But what continues to amaze me is that there are so few off the shelf cutters which will exactly match many trad details, particularly sash window and door mouldings.
A common sash window glazing bar size is 44x15 I have never seen a cutter for spindle or router which will do ovolo, lambs tongue, 5x13mm etc at this common size.

cheers
Jacob
PS Perhaps I shouldn't talk about DIY cutters anymore, in view of the dangers. And anyway anyone can work it out for themselves, should they suddenly find the need. It's not exactly a secret!

[jasonb]

There is a 75mm diameter limiter block made Italy for machines like the Zinken and Kity and I believe it takes limiters, too. Problem is that it's not readily available and I reckon anything bigger won't fit the machine (the smallest Whitehill block these days is 96mm diameter, so a 125mm opening would be required to accommodate the tooling projection)

I should clarify that I was talking about the small bore blocks. Kity do a 68mm x 40 x 20mm bore one , The smallest limited one they do is 78mm but that has the more common 30mm bore.

The small bore blocks were made for the early combi machines that were 3 separate machines on one base with one motor and a lot of belt changing These had the small 20mm spindle with the slot for french cutters.

Jason

[woodworker]

I've been using spindle moulders for over 40yrs and I used to use one of these with it's tilting table. And all of those cutters .

Seeing your photo's takes me back into a time when no one knew any better, I certainly wouldn't use any of them ever again.

I had over a years training before I was allowed to use that model of moulder before I was allowed to use it on my own. The tilting table takes some getting used to and it's not for the untrained or inexperienced IMHO. If you are completely new to spindle moulders take great care with this.

I would take Scrits advice very seriously especially in regard to reading the HSE documents and read them throughly TWICE at least.

Again imho forget anything you've heard & read about Americans using spindle moulders and table saws for that matter, again as Scrit mentions their safety record is appalling.

I realise this post might sound all negative but that particular machine has a steep learning curve mainly because of the tilting table.

Take Care

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 24, 2008 12:27:55 GMT woodworker said:

I've been using spindle moulders for over 40yrs and I used to use one of these with it's tilting table. And all of those cutters .

Seeing your photo's takes me back into a time when no one knew any better, I certainly wouldn't use any of them ever again.

Tilting table looks bad news but a tilting spindle would be OK wouldn't it AOTBE?
Have never used either myself.

cheers
Jacob

[Scrit]

I've not used a tilting table spindle moulder, but I have experience of using tilting table pin routers and they can take a bit of getting used to. On the up side if the cut starts going wrong the work piece will tend to drop onto your toes whilst on the downside you're constantly having to feed through and push up onto the cutter which isn't really all that safe. I've had a tilting head pin router in the past and I'd say it was a lot easier and safer to use - you are much more in control of the cut, I imagine the same applies to spindle moulders.

Scrit

[Keith]

I had a crappy spindle moulder years ago, scared the wits out of me and did a pretty poor job. I got rid of it and took the decision that unless I could afford one with all the safety features ( and a power feed) I'd manage with a router table.

Why try to cobble something together that you know to be extremely dangerous. If you put all this effort into woodworking (rather than fiddling with metal) it will do you a lot more good .

[simuk]

A wise man learns from other peoples mistakes. A fool learns from his own

Simon

[tusses]

gonna scrap most of it and make a router table ... pics to follow ;D