MDF love or hate it

[andy]

Do you use MDF or avoid it like the plague

[engineerone]

have you banned jacob from this andy or is it open season ;D ;D ;D

certainly for built ins i would tend to prefer using mdf,
and in particular if i am painting things then it is a waste of
even shed pine

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

There's a bit of painted furniture here by Adam Cherubini
Wonder why he didn't use mdf, the prat. ;D

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

oh grow up jacob, cherubini is practicing reproducing 17/18th century furniture, which is not the same thing as using mdf in specific circumstances such as built in wardrobes, and bookshelves.
paul

[paulchapman]

While I hate the dust it creates, I think MDF is an extremely versatile material, which can be used for a whole variety of woodworking applications. In many cases it is preferable to solid wood (although nowhere near as enjoyable to use). Some of the things I've made with it and found it better than solid wood for various reasons (mainly stability) are my workbench



Shooting boards



And a whole range of jigs, such as this router trammel bar





Of course, some people class it as inferior rubbish (no names ;D). Their loss in my view

Cheers

Paul

[jake]

We already have a poll for this, somewhere

[wizer]

I voted 'hate it', because I do. But I use it because it's cheap, versatile, easy to use, cheap, cheap, etc

I have a workshop full of offcuts around 300x300 that I can't bare to get rid of (cos I am tight), but I am falling over them!

[mrgrimsdale]

Sept 13, 2008 22:52:43 GMT paulchapman said:

Of course, some people class it as inferior rubbish (no names ;D). Their loss in my view

Cheers

Paul

I admit to occasionally using it for jigs/aids and I once made some speaker cabinets. I never buy it however - you can always find some in a skip somewhere as it is so obsolescent.
Wouldn't use it for a workbench - not durable enough, or maybe that's more to do with the way I work.
It just seems a pity that small workshops and amateurs are trying to compete with the cheap furniture industry and making throwaway junk - they don't need to and they can't compete effectively anyway.
Cooking analogy again - it's like going in for home cooking but trying to produce a big mac burger or tinned beans. The whole point is that it's quite easy to make something vastly superior, especially with all these super tools which everybody goes on about!

cheers
Jacob

[tusses]

I hate it.

Would use it for jigs. I use ply for my workbench tops.

I would use it for speaker cabinetts, as its properties make it about the best choice of material to use.

I made some storage boxes for my wifes pet shop store not long ago. I choose MDF on price - but half way through I was working out how much it would be to glue up some cheap pine panels ! I think it will be the way I go next time.

MDF is bloody heavy too !

mind you - I would consider using chip board for store type shelves and stuff that wont be seen.

I have been doing a bit of business research lately, and I must admit that most people are buying cheap rubbish . I even looked round Ikea to get a feel for the style of furniture that seems to be all the rage (Ive never been there before). I couldn't believe the poor quality ! I did come away thinking I could compete on like for like seeing how their stuff was thrown together ! I couldn't bring myself to do it tho LOL.

I've been looking round Antique and Furniture showrooms, the stuff that is selling most is either imported thrown together cheap stuff or 'shabby chic' painted crap .

anyway it was better made than the ikea stuff - so I might be giving it a try ! whether I can bring myself to use MDF is another matter tho , I dont just want a 'Job' that I dont enjoy doing !

[tusses]

Oh - and I dont mean to put anyone down, who likes MDF. I seen the stuff JFC does and it is excelent !

its just no for me

[sainty]

Not really a question of love or hate for me. Its about using the most appropriate material for the job and it's always been the case. I'm sure that every movement or style through history has done the same.

[jfc]

I think MDF is a great material . Every job i do i have to decide with the customer what materials to use . I have never got a wardrobe job where i have quoted for solid timber . One example is a set of oak wardrobes that came out at 12K . Solid backs sides etc . They went with someone else that did it for 2k and he used veneered blockboard The customer was quite amazed that it was blockboard when i went back about a year later to do another job .
To do a fitted wardrobe out of solid timber is a waste of timber IMHO .

Another example is the porch canopy i did .







The customer couldnt find anyone to cast it in concreate at a decent price . Solid timber would have cracked and opened up at the joints allowing a chance for rot to take up . Exterior MDF was the perfect material for the job.

I actually enjoy working with MDF , not so much knocking up carcasses but by the many different things you can turn the finished peice into at very low cost . I need to earn money making what i do and MDF seems to hit the right price range for most people . As you can see the house with the porch canopy is not a small house .

[paulchapman]

Sept 14, 2008 7:52:16 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

Wouldn't use it for a workbench - not durable enough, or maybe that's more to do with the way I work.

Well, it must be the way you work, Jacob ;D When that picture was taken, my bench had been through 10 years of hard use I made it from MDF as a temporary measure, until I could afford, and had the time, to make something better. But it's been so successful (it's still dead flat) that I plan on using it for many more years.

Cheers

Paul

[jfc]

I also use it on my workbench as a sacrificial top , i think i have oak veneered on there right now

[paulchapman]

Sept 14, 2008 14:20:02 GMT jfc said:

i have oak veneered on there right now

Very posh ;D

[jfc]

Well i was going to go for cherry but it clashed with my spindle moulder

[gazza]

Yep use it

Cant see what all the fuss is about
Cheers,
Gazza.

[big-all]

like anything else its the best material for the job

i mainly use hardwoods or pine but where painted' intricate mouldings in dry enviroments you cant beat mdf
ok the dust is a pain and damp can kill it but horses for courses

[engineerone]

i think that anyone who dismisses mdf out of hand is as dumb as a luddite was.

wood has become too expensive for many people to use in all circumstances, so when you have a choice, and you need to make money, or save money, then you have to consider mdf.

it and real wood both have their limitations, and you must consider them, but in reality when making built in's using mdf is a no brainer. i have just designed a built in for a mate, in mdf, the material cost is about 250 quid, solid wood would be over 500
similar amount of labour, but will the client pay for the difference which in most cases, they will not see or appreciate.

most so called antique furniture includes a lot of crap wood inside where it is not seen too much, and much "classical" french furniture was painted because it was difficult to get decent timber for a time, so cheaper wood was painted and a new design criteria established.

if you are you are restoring things, then real wood should be used, however, if doing second fix in a new dwelling, the mdf has a lot of virtue. or when adding things to an existing house,
then economics must come into play, and there mdf is the only way to go. it does however require proper design to enhance its characteristics.

and again i remind you that when people are coming into making things, they have to use materials they can afford, and that allow them to evolve an interest, then if they go further, they can learn greater skills and do more hand work, to enhance the value of using real wood.

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Except that for most jobs the materials are the least expensive thing in the equation. Your £500 worth of timber would do about £10k worth of work for me. Off the top of my head - I haven't worked it out but materials as 10% to 5% I guess as typical. So skimping is a seriously false economy - you don't save much but you reduce the quality of the product.
So clients want cheap mdf? Get a better class of client! If you say no to the various cheapo ways of doing things, you get clients who want quality, and the others leave you alone.
This sounds facetious but it's a basic fact of trading - you get clients according to however you set out your stall. If you set out to supply fish & chips it's unlikely that you will be able to move in stages, towards haute cuisine.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Better class of client , WOW . Thats quite amusing really

I find that material costs are more like 40 - 50 % that includes mdf work .

[dunbarhamlin]

Hate, loathe and despise the stuff.
But do use it for jigs and moulds.

As a hamateur, a little luddism is a Good Thing. Certainly my skills have improved considerably over the past week, armed with and and back saws, 22" hand plane, a couple of chisels and a screw driven into the work surface (with a brace) for work holding.
Quicker with machines? I'm sure of it (especially stock prep!) but also noisy, dusty, hazardous and (for me) too impersonal.

So MDF for me is like power tools - certainly of value, but not fun. I doubt very much that (as a hobbiest) I'd have progressed to wood had I started with MDF and tailed beasts.

Cheers
Steve

[mrgrimsdale]

Sept 15, 2008 9:59:02 GMT jfc said:

Better class of client , WOW . Thats quite amusing really

I find that material costs are more like 40 - 50 % that includes mdf work .

Sorry don't be too literal about "class" .
Had a quick gander at bills - 10% for timber would be absolutely tops for me. I could argue that's because it's the raw material and I'm getting paid for the preparation, mainly planing, whereas if you use pre-fab materials you are paying some distant mega industry to do your work for you - and handing over a lot of control in the process.
Luddite principles ;D.

cheers
Jacob
PS what about your 4 french doors jason? £3 or 4k when finished? I'd guess timber at 50 to 100 quid max. Less than 5%?

[engineerone]

jason charging "proper prices"

i think jacob you are mixing your metaphors, from what you claim, you do not get involved in built ins etc, so you are lucky.

most people in london cannot specialise so much, the market is to diverse, and certainly specialising in sash windows is much more complex here, because of the competition. also the number of decent wood suppliers is much fewer, particularly ones you can trust and build a reputation with.

good luck on you for being able to price your skills so high, but
maybe you have less competition, because you specialise.

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

I'm not high priced, or lucky for that matter

London is the best place in Britain, if not the world, to specialise -more population and wealth per square mile than anywhere else in Britain.
Odd how Paul gets things not just a bit wrong, but completely wrong by miles ;D ;D

Have done many fitted things but with real wood. I did one mdf kitchen, with formica tops, but never again.

cheers
Jacob