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Post by jfc on Sept 15, 2008 23:18:08 GMT
I like the original idea .
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Post by engineerone on Sept 15, 2008 23:21:50 GMT
that's only because you can make things quickly  paul  |
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Post by jfc on Sept 15, 2008 23:29:07 GMT
Hes giving us a month ... you need to get some boxing gloves mate ! ;D
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Post by engineerone on Sept 16, 2008 0:33:00 GMT
now that's a challenge, making a pair of boxing gloves ;D paul |
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simuk
Full Member
Posts: 111
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Post by simuk on Sept 16, 2008 7:14:59 GMT
Two guys go head to head with say a month to build something within some pre defined criteria for example a box, a chair, a coffee table, something from mdf, Stu I am Not interested in making anything out of mdf, for business yeah, and where appropriate to do so great, but for a bit of fun , no chance. Working with mdf is not my idea of fun. Also Sainty i would rather go head to head with you, local derby and all that Simon |
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Post by tusses on Sept 16, 2008 7:59:10 GMT
I'm with the original idea too.
make something a bit different/creative, bit of fun, a few WIP's etc. doesn't (shouldn't) matter who wins !
I'm not in a financial position to give away a months worth of free (LOL) time or any materials .
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Post by sainty on Sept 16, 2008 8:47:49 GMT
Also Sainty i would rather go head to head with you, local derby and all that Simon Ok simuk, that pressed all the right buttons  ;D South coast derby! What do you want to make? Something simple to start things off I suggest. Small table, box?? Happy to submit final photos on the 16th October? Anyone want to offer to collate the photos and set up the poll? rgds Stu |
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Post by jfc on Sept 16, 2008 8:53:40 GMT
I'm sure the WWUK band of merry men could handle that part for you mate . ;D
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Post by engineerone on Sept 16, 2008 9:32:02 GMT
how about both a hand made section and a mainly machinery section?? paul |
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simuk
Full Member
Posts: 111
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Post by simuk on Sept 16, 2008 11:30:33 GMT
Hey Sainty,
brilliant brig it on ;D
I would like to go with what i have already made a prototype for, a jewelery box.
Also could we have more clarification on the rules for the contest.
Don't want you sawing below the belt ;D
Simon
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Post by sainty on Sept 16, 2008 12:19:57 GMT
Paul
I'm not sure that is necessary. The quality of the work can only be reflected in the photos as that is the only way that we have of judging. Plus I'm always a bit skeptical about "hand made" anyway - does it mean that the tree has been felled with an axe? Having said that, in this format of maker vs maker i don't see why the rules cant be specified and decided by the two makers. At the end of the day, it's just a bit of fun. I guess the way to do it is to put yourself out there to take on a challenger giving the rules of competition up front i.e specify the type of project, length of time, and any special requirements like budget, tool types, materials, number of components etc and see if anyone bites.
rgds
Stu
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Post by sainty on Sept 16, 2008 12:29:02 GMT
Hey Sainty, brilliant brig it on ;D I would like to go with what i have already made a prototype for, a jewelery box. Also could we have more clarification on the rules for the contest. Don't want you sawing below the belt ;D Simon Ok, I'll go with the box idea, very crafty suggesting something you have already been working on! I'll have to come down your way and pick up some of that scrap material they have lying on the harbour - mary rose timber or something OK rules: Fininshed (5) photos to be posted anonymously by some kind gent on or before 16th October 2008 to a Poll thread which should remain open for votes for 1 week - is it possible to have a poll that doesn't show the result? Photos can be accompanied by a short description of no more than 200 words Entry must be a box of some form or another. No restriction on tool type No restriction on budget No restriction on material What say you my fishy friend? rgds Stu |
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Post by andy on Sept 16, 2008 12:43:43 GMT
Finished (5) photos to be posted anonymously by some kind gent on or before 16th October 2008 to a Poll thread which should remain open for votes for 1 week - is it possible to have a poll that doesn't show the result? Photos can be accompanied by a short description of no more than 200 words Yes the poll results can remain hidden until the end I suggest that you email us at (woodworkuk@hotmail.co.uk) with your submissions and we will do the necessary |
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Post by jfc on Sept 16, 2008 13:07:19 GMT
Thats kind of you to give Sim a head start ;D
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 7:13:14 GMT
How about making a shutter in a shaker style but using that special MDF that has a veneer face that looks and splits just like real panels ;D! Oh, and don't forget to make sure it's the unstable type of MDF that swells in its width to force the frame joints open just like a real panel can. ;D ;D Oh, one other thing, make sure it definitely the MDF that will twist and buckle just like a real panel can as well... Then when it's finished, make a cardboard box out of it to put it in.  ;D Surprised you are having so much trouble with panels Andy If you look around you will see external and internal trad joinery and furniture by the ton, with panels all in good nick. Panels are not a problem. Splitting panels are extremely rare - usually due to excess paint/varnish having stuck the panels in the slots so they can't move. Swelling panels also rare - this usually means they were too tight to start with; you need a bigger clearance than you'd think. Or it's external joinery in derelict buildings which has been severely neglected and got soaked. Shrinking panels more of a prob esp with old furniture in new central heated buildings - but needn't be a problem with new work Never met a twisted or buckled panel! BTW mdf suffers from exactly the same problems if it is badly fitted in the first place, but wouldn't survive like real wood ;D Panel construction is one of the most common, unproblematic and tried and tested methods used in joinery and furniture. cheers Jacob PS forgot to say - mdf is more problematic than real wood in that it expands in thickness, given sufficient moisture exposure, This applies to MR mdf , but slower. The problem is that it doesn't shrink back quite to it's original size. So with exposure, all mdf will self destruct |
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Post by andy king on Sept 17, 2008 9:58:30 GMT
Hmm... don't recall saying I had problems with panels, far from it. At college I was taught about all the problems that can happen with timber panels, incuding splitting, swelling, twisting and buckling, and its definitely not 'extremely rare' to see split panels, nor rare for swelling panels. I've made or fitted plenty of work to replace old stuff where this has occured. Perhaps all the old joiners down this way were rubbish compared to you top class Derby lot?  As for excessive paint/varnish being a cause, probably part of it undoubtedly, but unless you know of a way to actually put a finish on where the joint between panel and framework remains free to allow the panel to move but at the same time prevent moisture ingress (in the case of externally exposed stuff) it's always going to be the case. Therefore, properly finished man made panels are less prone to any of the problems that real timber can be. And yes, anything badly fitted will be affected including MDF, but that's down to the initial construction and fitter, not the product itself. I'm not a huge fan of it as a material, but i'm savvy enugh to realise its attributes and where it can be used to good effect. |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 11:02:06 GMT
snip a way to actually put a finish on where the joint between panel and framework remains free to allow the panel to move but at the same time prevent moisture ingress (in the case of externally exposed stuff) One answer is the bolection moulding. Fixed to rails and stiles, but with panel free to move. cheers Jacob |
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Post by engineerone on Sept 17, 2008 11:07:43 GMT
but jacob if you can't paint doors without getting paint on the window sections, how can you avoid the same problems when painting panels, and the stringers paul |
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Post by andy king on Sept 17, 2008 11:20:42 GMT
snip a way to actually put a finish on where the joint between panel and framework remains free to allow the panel to move but at the same time prevent moisture ingress (in the case of externally exposed stuff) One answer is the bolection moulding. Fixed to rails and stiles, but with panel free to move. cheers Jacob Yep, seen plenty of bollection moulding applications where the paint has sealed the panel to the mould and the panel splitting because of it |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 11:41:31 GMT
One answer is the bolection moulding. Fixed to rails and stiles, but with panel free to move. cheers Jacob Yep, seen plenty of bollection moulding applications where the paint has sealed the panel to the mould and the panel splitting because of it Oh well we'll just have to differ! I've never seen a split or expanded panel in any old joinery, except where exceptional circumstances pertain, such as badly fitted (by me several times til I twigged ) or over exposure to moisture or high heat. Or rarely; seriously defective bit of wood which shouldn't have been there in the first place. It's generally fool proof which is why it is so common. Quick shufty around the house and workshop - several dozen trad panels, doors or panelling, not one split or swollen. Except my own made front door - thin hairline surface splits but that's because I haven't painted them. 2 years in primer, no good! cheers Jacob |
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 11:42:50 GMT
but jacob if you can't paint doors without getting paint on the window sections, how can you avoid the same problems when painting panels, and the stringers paul What are you on about Paul? ;D |
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Post by jfc on Sept 17, 2008 12:06:08 GMT
[quoteI've never seen a split or expanded panel in any old joinery][/quote]
Oh c'mon . Your making it up now . Or you dont leave the house .
Nearly all joined timbers will show the joint over time but the joint is there to keep the panel / stile stable . Its better to have the joint than not to in solid timber . This is the whole point of using MDF . You get rid of the joint and the panel is still stable .
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 12:30:44 GMT
Er - I'm talking about the panels themselves in panel construction:
Most panels are not joined at all - wide boards were available in the good old days.
dunbarhamlin's shutters panels shouldn't need joined boards, they'll only be 9 to 12 inches wide . Even if joined - the join should be strong enough. If it opens then it's faulty work.
What I'm saying is I've hardly ever seen a split or expanded panel in any old joinery except under special circumstances listed in posts above.
Worst case being dipped panel doors, where they've expanded under soaking and then dried right back to smaller than they were. MDF wouldn't survive that at all
Panel in panel construction not really a problem.
Don't know why everybody thinks it is. There's a lot of it about - you only have to look.
cheers
Jacob
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dunbarhamlin
Full Member
Lutherie with Luddite Tendancies
Posts: 244
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Post by dunbarhamlin on Sept 17, 2008 12:57:40 GMT
Yep, 9 1/4" on the shutters (giving me an 1/8" either side for movement - enough?,) narrower still on the flaps.
Not joining them, but haven't had a mandolin split down the middle yet (well, anywhere actually) so think my thin stock jointing is up to par. Always candle to check for a good fit with these before glue up - that way there's no need to crush the parts together - cramped not clamped.
Finishing the joinery this w/e.
Steve
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Post by mrgrimsdale on Sept 17, 2008 13:41:26 GMT
Yep, 9 1/4" on the shutters (giving me an 1/8" either side for movement - enough?,) NO. More. Unless you are moving them from a damp cold workshop to a warm dry environment. This is the critical thing - you have to judge how dry the wood and how much expansion/contraction it will be subject to in its new environment. 1/4" either side (assuming 1/2" slots) could be a compromise. 1/8" minimum at the top end to ensure a loose fit. cheers Jacob |
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;D