firewood?

[engineerone]

much as i hate to admit it jacob my fingers math is wrong ;D

so i drew it out, and get the same figures as you

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Guess what this is:



It's the planed back of the kennel door panel as shown earlier above, propped up so the sun skims across and shows up the hollows and bumps.

Rough but quick! A scrub plane in action.

Doesn't look quite that rough in normal lighting.

cheers
Jacob

[tusses]

surely you just need a ruler and protractor

measur 1 across , 7 up (or whatever). Draw a line, and see what the angle is with a protractor ? !

[mrgrimsdale]

Yes whatever turns you on it's horses for course. Drawing things out is often the most practical way of doing things - and working them out in the process. A drawing, a rod, is a calculator. It gives you the angle or the length, not necessarily as number but as a length of line or angle between lines. You can convert it into a number by measuring it - if you need to.
Or you can go the other way, with a carpenters square frinstance: - set your bevel against '1' on one arm and '5' on the other (whatever the units, inches, cms etc) and you have a 1/5 gradient in a useful form which you can transfer straight to the workpiece without even knowing the actual angle as a number.
Or you can use a caculator if it easiest. Or your fingers (except Paul ;D)

cheers
Jacob

[tusses]

Oct 6, 2008 18:59:28 GMT tusses said:

surely you just need a ruler and protractor

measur 1 across , 7 up (or whatever). Draw a line, and see what the angle is with a protractor ? !

you could substitute thumbs for the ruler and a bevel guage for the angle

or - as I do - just judge it buy eye and make em

[mrgrimsdale]

Done a bit more, in between other things.
Glued drawer bottoms back together after quick plane pass over the edges where they were glued originally. Thought it'd be sensible at the same time to also do the various splits and cracks in the boards by breaking them apart and gluing back together.
The re-glued straight edges all stayed nice and flat but the glued split edges all adopted various curves and bends!
I now realise that this wasn't a good idea - if you glue a split and hold it with cramps you are merely re-instating the stresses which caused the crack in the first place, so it will split again, but probably in a different place. Must try and remember that!
The bottoms aren't so bad that I can't slot them back in, so will have to see what happens then.

Next the drawer sides which are worn on both edges but most on the bottom:



Plan is to build them up somehow. Don't want to replace them as I'd have to cut all those dovetails, and anyway its a first principle of conservation to keep as much of the original as possible. And it's cheaper!
Trouble is they have lost any "reference" edge to work from. But they all have the slot, which lines up with the bottom of the backs and the slot in the front.
So the top of the slot becomes the datum.
All I need to do is cut off the edge and plane back to the top of the slot. This gives a straight edge and various possibilities are open, such as carefully trimming more off (you'd still have a straight edge and a known datum), or trimming off the worn top edge too.
What I chose was to add a lath, to make up to the original size, and then to add drawer slips instead of new slots. The slips would cover the join and be a better detail than a slot - stronger, and a wider edge bearing on the runners.
This would reduce the required dimensions of the bottoms, but they could do with a trim anyway.
Then just to leave the top edges as they are.

So what was the original size and what width of lath, to glue on to the bottom?

Another little rod - trying it out in various places to take off the largest width from top of slot to bottom of drawer front:



And lots of fiddling with the main rod - laying pieces on, fronts and sides, to see how they will fit. Here are 3 in situ on the rod marks:



The difference shows here, the right hand drawer front about 3mm smaller than it's opening:


Comparing the new rod with a drawer side:



The derived max depth on the new rod is 17mm, so I will make the laths 18mm leaving 1mm to play with.
NB first measurement! Not needed any so far, but now will have to set the thicknesser. If I was doing it by hand I would set the marker gauge and not need a measurement.

Another reason for this project is to look at ways of using up my collection of reclaimed chapel wood. Some of it is really fine like these bits of pitch pine, red cedar, whatever they are, but most of it is small.



cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Looks like douglas fir to me .

[mrgrimsdale]

Oct 8, 2008 17:56:05 GMT jfc said:

Looks like douglas fir to me .

Yes it does but I don't think it is - it hasn't got that zig-zaggy end grain. One bit is definitely pitch pine (I think :.
There are some lovely softwoods around, douglas fir, various cedars, pitch pine - even common stuff like larch is well worth looking at. People get a bit snooty about it as though it's inferior - but what could be more boring than american or japanese white oak frinstance?

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

Back on the case. Not for long.
Drawers sides trimmed freehand (no straight edges except the slot) and planed back to top of slot. Nails pulled, or poked further in:




18 mm laths stuck on. Big vice for weight - but not for long or it would impart a permanent bend. The laths are slightly thicker than the boards, as the latter are all a bit varied due to wear etc. So I can plane them to fit exactly when the glue is dry.

[mrgrimsdale]

Got to get on with this thing or I'll lose bits or forget what's what and it will be firewood.

Recap on dovetails
The slope on the dovetails varies from about 1/5 to nearly 1/2. They are all still in one piece even though several of the drawer sides have come apart in the past and have been crudely nailed back in to place. So the slope is OK, other things have failed in 100 (?) years of misuse, but not the dovetails
This makes me wonder where the convention of slope 1/6 to 1/8 came from. It's repeated everywhere. It's as though nobody has ever looked! Nothing wrong with 1/6 to 1/8 of course, but nothing particularly special about it either. I guess anything from 1/8 to 1/2 will do for most things.

It pays to look closely at things. The old man isn't that far away and he has left many hints and messages.
This piece of furniture was made with maximum economy and efficiency. It shows up everywhere and where things are skimped there is no great disadvantage.
There is a clear message in the dovetails: they are very carefully and painstakingly marked with a knife, there are a lot of them. So it must have been the most efficient way i.e. the way to get the job done to the required standard with the least amount of time and effort. No skimping here!
But then, it is a complicated joint as woodworkers of all abilities are aware. It's the 'crux' or potential bottleneck joint, which can easily go wrong and delay the whole project.
So the old man's message is; don't worry about the slope, but mark up as precisely as you can without taking any shortcuts. But I'm still convinced that the apprentice did the actual cutting.
I haven't done that many of them, furniture not my thing, so I'm listening fairly carefully!

Drawer no VI has one side needing replacement: width taken from it's opposite directly with gauge, and length from itself, directly with square. Quicker, more accurate, than measuring.





Useful tip here for the less confident - don't cut to length until you have got the first row of dovetails cut. If they are no good you can cut them off and have another go, and then cut to length.

Face marks (inside) and end mark - to ensure correct alignment and to make sure that I don't get 2 left hand sides by mistake. Easy done!



Difficult to mark from pins to side whilst hand held as the ends are all a bit ropy, so I used my dovetail marking out jig:



The only line shared by front and side is the top-of-slot 18mm datum - so it's marked here on the jig:



Side marked with the 18mm line, lined up and clamped to jig, Front clamped in position, also lined up to the 18mm mark:



I don't use a marking knife, except for the rare occasion when I really need a cut edge, or rarer; an indelible mark. Sorry old-man, ignoring your instructions here!
They aren't easy to use - have to be flat against the edge, care taken to avoid being sent off by the grain, or paring edge off the pin/tail etc.
In fact I think they are mis-named - they aren't for "marking" at all but should be reserved only for cut edge marks and indelible marks. Shouldn't be used at all by novices IMHO as they just create another problem and make the job more difficult. Like honing jigs in fact!
Instead I use a hard pencil. For dovetails a 4H, with the end shaped into chisel or point to suit. Here marking the dovetail needed on a repaired side:



Saw cut down the middle helps the waste drop out instead of jamming in the pin hole, when you use the chisel:



Just a tap and it drops out. Quicker and easier than removing waste with a coping saw



Dovetails OK. Roughish, but as good as the originals.



Parrot beak good for removing pins even on fragile stuff like this, if you hold it in the vice. Would be better with flattened beak ends perhaps, as it tends to snip very solid pins



Done all the drawer sides and dovetails. They all fit OK. Drawer slips and bottoms next. Then gluing up.

[mooretoolsplease]

I just saw this link posted across on the other side, and straight away thought about your project Jacob.
www.popularwoodworking.com/article/klausz/

The saw he uses for cutting out the waste has a 90* bend in it so that it goes down down the kerf but as it gets pushed through it turns 90* to saw the bottoms.

I wonder if this is a similar approach to how your drawers were made originally?

[mrgrimsdale]

Coo that's fast!
No whats odd about my dovetails is that some things are rough and ready; the slope of the tails being different on opposite sides of a pin; but marked up very carefully with a knife.
But the waste after sawing has all been removed quite roughly with chisels. The shoulders are marked with hard pencil - hard enough to leave a permanent scored line, not quite a cut.
My idle theory is that the rough and ready was done by the competent craftsman who knew exactly how much effort to put in to the job - like Krausz, but the careful knife marks were made for the apprentice to follow.
This sounds improbable but I've seen this before, where it was more obvious; marks on one side of a stile made with a knife, presumably taken from the rod by a senior, but then taken round the other 3 sides in pencil by a junior who would also be doing the work.

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

Gotta finish the f****r now I've started! Still - I would never have got around to scrapping it.

Dry run. Taking marks off, on to the rod for the next job. Having 10mm slips in place of the slot, then it follows that the bottom boards need 10mm taking off each side. This also is a chance to square them up so that they will hold the drawers nice and square when glueing up.



Having the marks on the rod makes it easy to compare pieces in case there are variations, and to take off marks etc.



Edges trimmed off on the TS. New bevels planed to gauge marks. Spare drawer slip to check for size.
Had to use the old router for the slips. The noise, the dust! Not worth setting up the spindle.



Dry run.



Glued and clamped. Joints flooded with as much glue as possible. NOT the bottom boards - they are just pinned under the back board to stop them coming out. They have to float free.
Clamped with bits of old Karrimat packing, to distribute the pressure over the dove tails



More marks on the rod as I need them. This shows corner of frame, horizontal rail, drawer sides + slip + slot. Now useful for the runner sizes.



Runners going in. Big nails, lotsa glue. Spacers lengths taken from the rod.



Am beefing it up with runners as the whole thing is fairly fragile. These are all measured from the rod in order to try and force the thing back to it's original size where possible. If you just fit to the existing, the errors might accumulate and each step get more difficult.





Drawers fit after a bit of adjusting. I'd made the sides up 1mm over-size to allow a bit of adjustment with a jack plane, which was just enough. Some fitted direct, some with a trim, one edge, or opposite ends of edges to correct twist.



Next is drawer guides at the sides, and end stops.

Nearly there!

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

The knobs all have wood screws except these two which now have dowels made with a dowel plate - the perfect accessory for this sort of job. Everybody should have one. It makes super dowels - scrap wood, straight grain, slightly bendy for a springy fit and rough surface for glue.



It's starting to look human again now it's got it's knobs back and the anaesthetic is wearing off.
Nitromors and linseed oil. Nitromors tip - clean it off by rubbing planer shavings over - wear plastic gloves!:



Drawers all working nicely - but not so perfect that you can swap them about. I'll mark them left and right.

Interesting detail - the knobs are all made of small stuff, probably 3 inch diameter birch. Same as my new ash feet - small stuff useless for anything else.
I looked at a tallboy we have; the knobs are from large diameter mahogany - end-grain almost straight across. But they would not have imported small stuff, just big baulks, so thats the reason for that!

[mrgrimsdale]

Here's a cheapo knob from the project. Clearly from a small branch about 3" dia as you can see from the growth rings and a bit of bark from a twig. Birch? It'll look a bit shinier before I've finished.



Posh knobs from a Georgian chest. End grain like the first one. Mahogany. Growth rings almost straight = very large diameter tree.

[gazza]

Nice one Jacob,
Very interesting thread
What does one intend on doing with the finished article ??
Cheers,
Gazza.

[paulchapman]

Did you make that dowel plate yourself, Jacob

Cheers

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

What does one intend on doing with the finished article ??
Cheers,
Gazza.

Might try and sell it. Could be a useful kitchen item esp as I've beefed it up a bit so the drawers could hold heavy cutlery etc.

Oct 25, 2008 7:19:13 GMT paulchapman said:

Did you make that dowel plate yourself,

Asked local engineer to make it. Pidcock's, Scarthin, Cromford, next to the bookshop). £25.
I see Dakota make one (Rutlands) a bit cheaper. Looks OK to me. Needs to be fitted into a bench top or something solid as it only works well if you can exert maximum wallop! Without hitting the actual plate itself of course; you stop a bit short and poke the dowel through with the next one, or a bit of stick.

cheers
Jacob

[simuk]

Got to agree with earlier comments, very interesting thread, looking forward to seeing it finished

[mrgrimsdale]

Oct 15, 2008 22:33:46 GMT mooretoolsplease said:

I just saw this link posted across on the other side, and straight away thought about your project Jacob.
www.popularwoodworking.com/article/klausz/

The saw he uses for cutting out the waste has a 90* bend in it so that it goes down down the kerf but as it gets pushed through it turns 90* to saw the bottoms.

I wonder if this is a similar approach to how your drawers were made originally?

They're all at it now! This is impressive:-
blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/
How do you get the url for the video itself?

cheers
Jacob

[Dave S]

Oct 27, 2008 7:37:57 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

They're all at it now! This is impressive:-
blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/
How do you get the url for the video itself?

cheers
Jacob

This help?

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIgNel0H_I

The link to the video on youtube is:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIgNel0H_I

Dave

[gazza]

Oct 27, 2008 7:37:57 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

They're all at it now! This is impressive:-

Ah, but they both need glasses FFS ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
Gazza.

[mrgrimsdale]

Still at it on and off.
Discarding the first knobs as they are too different from one another. More interesting firewood!
Made some more from softwood with holes instead of their own pegs, as I thought they'd be too weak. Hardwood dowels instead. But I'm getting good at it and can turn them out fastish and accurately now, which is part of the reason for this project i.e. to get my hand in etc.



Nearly finished, ready to paint. The runners, guides, stops, are all a bit if a bodge which seems to be traditional! They weren't 'designed' in the first place, but were just nailed in place, from bits of various scraps:-

[mrgrimsdale]

Nearly finished! Painted with Holkham linseed oil paint. You just get used to the slow drying - 2 days in an un-heated workshop. I'm painting everything blue at the mo, until I buy a tin of a different colour.
Couldn't find any suitable scrap or 2nd hand for the top so used some new 1 1/2inch redwood. Bit too good for this project but quick and nice to use.

[woodchucker]

Oct 5, 2008 13:24:01 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

I really can't guess why they are so irregular, but the included angle is consistent, i.e. 34 to 35 degrees.
This gives an average of 17.5 degrees for the sides.
This is a long way from the often recommended 6 or 8 degrees, but there seems to be no problem, no broken tail ends or anything.



Any suggestions abt why my samples are so skewed?

cheers
Jacob

Because they were probably done on piecework; maybe four or six sides cut in one go and by eye Jacob? Which might explain some of the poorer cuts. Them's joiners' dovetails them is!

Jack