Next Project

[sainty]

Ok, this is going to be the first in what could be a series of questions over the next few weeks months on some projects that I have got lined up.

I have bought a house which I will be renovating (it's what I do). Unusually its not a student house and I have the chance to put some quality (it's all relative) into the renovation. Potential projects are

Kitchen
Windows
Internal Doors
Front Door
French doors/Sliders
Stairs
Built in Wardrobes


I have to decide what I will take on myself and what I will sub out. I want the work to be a showcase for my skills ( ;D ) to try and take on more joinery work after this project.

I have a preference for making the kitchen as I think that this would be good marketing for me, however I know that it will be time consuming.

Its seems that everyone that I talk to at the moment mentions wooden windows and I think that they would be interesting to make.

The internal doors are likely to be ledged and braced oak, and this seems like a quick win.

The front door is another interesting one, its what people will first see when they come to the house and would be good marketing i suspect.

Built ins in the bedrooms are relatively (!) easy and this is where my experience lies in any of the projects. Also a good chance of picking up more of this type of work I suspect

The stairs will be a straight flight with open treads and simple detailing, I'd love to take them on but would they be good for future work?

Anyone got any thoughts on the relative ease/merits of the projects involved?

Oh, I forgot the French doors, for some reason they don't seem to get me as excited as the other projects, but if I do the front door it would be nice have some consistency in style on the external doors.


Well, I'd love to take them all on but realistically I wont have the time. A lot of it will be oak themed, not original but safe I suppose.

Any thoughts?

[dom]

Kitchens and bedrooms are where the money is.
Most joinery work comes through builders who need to make a profit too, so you then have a middleman between you and the client.

Dom

[thallow]

Woo hoo can't wait for all those WIP pics - Good luck with the project mate!!!

[jfc]

Ahhhh good move with the spindle moulder then Re the windows and doors i have just designed and had made a set of knives for the spindle to do the window and door profile in one to take the new dg k glass . NLS will still have the drawing on file if your interested in it ? It makes the whole window and door making job a lot quicker .
Straight flight of stairs is very easy but you can buy them so cheap there is no point in making them if you dont have to .
Look forward to lots of pics .

[sainty]

Thanks or the replys. I never really thought about the WIPs, I'll have to add that into the schedule!

Dom, i though that Kitchens and Bathrooms would be a good place to earn some money (honestly I did), can you tell me how long is a piece of string? When you've answered that how long do you reckon it takes to build a "small" kitchen, simple shaker style in oak - finger in the air, a week for the cabinets, and a week for the doors?!?!!?!.

jfc, I'd be really interested in the profiles for the spindle, when I get it up and running I'll come back to you on that. In fact, I might continue this back on the other thread if thats alright.

I promise photos when I remember in return for good advice - no advice, no photos. ok.

Cheers

[dom]

A small kitchen ? You're right how long is a piece of string Sainty.

How well kitted out are you ?
How experienced are you ?

A week for the cabinets and doors and finished ( spray) This is for a dozen cabinets standard size.

[engineerone]

when my flat's kitchen was redone by the landlords about 4 years ago, they eventaully settled for the removal and refit with new bought in cabinets at 3-4 days.

this involved removing old stuff, knocking down an internal wall,
replastering the walls, and then install the new bits, and included lautro flooring and some new wiring including an extractor fan.

you need to think about the plumbing, the sink and also washing machine, as well as the cooking kit remember the infamous triangle of work.

from my experience, if you are living there at the time, do a part at a time. the other thing is whether you are going to make the walls and floor good too.

good luck

paul

[tom]

can you tell me how long is a piece of string? When you've answered that how long do you reckon it takes to build a "small" kitchen, simple shaker style in oak - finger in the air, a week for the cabinets, and a week for the doors?!?!!?!.

Generally a small shaker style kitchen running through our workshop will take around 100 hours to build and about 20-25 to spray or finish. This includes cabinets, doors, cornice, pelmets, plinths, scribes, end panels etc. It does all add up and thats working in a production shop. Might be able to make that quicker if you use off the shelf units and just make doors and everything thats 'seen'

[sainty]

Thanks for the finger in the air thoughts people. I know its an impossible question.

At least I've got an idea now, if I allow three good weeks (build, not install) I should be getting somewhere close. It will be designed with ease of construction in mind and I will try and get as much "off the shelf" as possible. I think that the hard bit might be generating the plans and the cutting lists. Its all too easy to copy the kitchens that are already out there, and thats not the point of the exercise.

Plenty of questions coming up on this I expect - hardware, finishing, suppliers etc

Thanks again


Sainty

[engineerone]

don't know where you are mate, but it is definately worth looking at some of the stores to see what is available in the terms of fittings, you know slide out shelves, corner shelves and even plinth stuff.

i am a great fan of the slide out types they really make the kitchen more useable, and reduce the amount you have to do in the cabinet itself. only problem with the tall ones is the door fronts need to be quite thick or they bend

paul

[mel]

hi sainty
im with dom on this one
it all depends on your skill level and how well equipped your workshop is
if you have to buy all the tools to do a particular job you may find it cost effective to farm it out
i've seen posts on the subject in the past
an old member on here sometime ago , used to make kitchens
and he often remarked that he would not have made any money from it had he not had a sanding machine
im not talking a 4" wide belt sander
were talking in terms of being able to put an entire kitchen door through and the finish being good enough to go straight to the spray booth
when i revamped my kitchen last year i found it a lot cheaper to go and buy the doors
i couldnt buy the wood for the price i got the finished doors at .
and the cost of setting up a spray booth and the cost of lacquers ,etc. etc
hope im not putting you off ;D
i will also join the list of people who want to see WIP pics
and i would also like to see a total list for "cost so far"
dont forget that your tastes in "show case" may not be the same as a potential buyers tastes
good luck with the projects you decide to take on
sorry if i may seem a little negative , but so many have tried and failed .
mel

[mel]

hi sainty
had another thought last night after posting
why not make the house suitable for disabled people ??
I know its not on your list of projects
but these houses are very popular
about 5 years ago a disabled house was built in grimsby
and the people renting it recieved no less than 500 telephone calls , as soon as it was announced that the house was purpose built for disabled

just an after thought

mel

[sainty]

Thanks Paul and Mel.

Whenever I'm out I always make a point of looking at showrooms etc to try and keep up to date with the latest fixtures and fittings that are available and it seems that there are plenty of suppliers out there.

It seems that there is very little to differentiate one supplier from another. I have a Porcenalosa(?) near me, top end kitchens well prices anyway. Then theres John Lewis, again pretty pricey but little different to Porcenalosa in term of design and fittings. I swear that the last Kitchen I fitted was as good as any of those, and that was from Trade Depot. I want to build a quality kitchen. The difference that I have is non standard units, unique design, build and install service. Now for this project, it might not be possible to go to town on the design, at least I can make it fit the space I've got, but its a place to start. Only time will tell if this will be an enjoyable or rewarding experience. I certainly hope that it is.

Mel, interesting thoughts on the disabled aspect, certainly could be something in it. For this project, its not suitable too many levels, the stairs are a bit tight. Too be honest it probably warrants a bit more research as well. I will certainly keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks again


Sainty

[sainty]

jfc said:

Ahhhh good move with the spindle moulder then Re the windows and doors i have just designed and had made a set of knives for the spindle to do the window and door profile in one to take the new dg k glass . NLS will still have the drawing on file if your interested in it ? It makes the whole window and door making job a lot quicker .

Any chance of some details on those cutters JFC? What block do they fit on or does it matter? Can they be produced for all blocks from the same plans? As the purchases move closer I am being forced into having to make some decisions! Oh yeah, by the way let me know when the power feed becomes available, I'm definitely interested.

Spindle moulders should come with a warning about the slope. How many slopes can you be on at once? They don't seem to cancel each other out either like I thought they might be. Oh well. At least I'm having fun ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[jfc]

They will fit into a 55mm pinned block so you could probably get a set made for around £90 i went for a block and cutters to save me having to remove cutters from the block each time i wanted to use them . That came to around £165 .

[jfc]

A bit more on the cutters



They allow me to rebate for double glazing and put a chamfer on in one pass . The querk at the bottom of the chamfer is the same depth as the rebate so i have a referance to cut to when i join the rails and stiles . I chamfer the outside so when painted looks like putty and bead from the inside .
Hope thats a bit more help .

[sainty]

Thanks for that JFC

I hope you don't mind but I have taken all your advice and produced some drawing of the casements as follows:

Iso view:



Exploded View:



Rail Section:



Stile Section:




Bead Section:



Tenon Detail:



As always a couple more here

I've just spotted a mistake on my drawings, not leaving a mm or so for the silicon, therefore kicking the beads out a bit. I'll save that for the next revision. Based on DG unit 4-16-4.

Am I getting close? ;D If I can understand how it all goes together I can sort out some tooling and get some mock ups done. Woohooo, back in the workshop! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Sainty

[jfc]

Looks good to me Dont forget to add 10mm to all rails and stiles to cover any faults in glue up . These can be cut off after .

[Telos]

sainty said:

..snip...
I've just spotted a mistake on my drawings, not leaving a mm or so for the silicon, therefore kicking the beads out a bit. I'll save that for the next revision. Based on DG unit 4-16-4.

You'll need more than a mm or so for the sealant... and whatever you use DO NOT use an ordinary silicon! Use a low modulus silicon or even better a silicon free MS-Polymer sealant.

The standard recommended glazing foam tape is 4mm thick (compresses to 3mm), so you need at least 6mm thickness for the sealant. You can get thinner foam tape but if the gap between bead and glass is too small the sealant can fail quickly and if you don't leave drain holes in/under the beading, the DG will fail.

Also, don't forget to add the thickness of the glazing packers when ordering your DG units, there has to be an air gap all the way around the unit, preferably at least 5mm.

[sainty]

Cheers guys.

If i need 3mm for "glazing tape" (does this go on the outside, silicon on the inside?) my 44mm stock is starting to look a bit thin. I made a mock up rail/stile joint yesterday so I had something tangible and the rebate isn't leaving a lot of stock as it is. 44mm stock less 24mm glass, 3mm tape leaves 17mm split inside and out, 8.5mm. Perhaps I need to beef it up a bit.

Ok re-read this thread and you do use 50mm stock, which adds 6mm to my design. this leaves 11.5mm inside and out (or 10mm if the tape is both inside and out), which I'm a bit more comfortable with.

Drain holes?? A couple of 5mm holes drilled down through the bottom rail? Ok I'm guessing, any clues?

Thanks again.....If you thought that this was bad I have just started reading about stairs with bottom winders...now theres more than a few questions there! ;D ;D

Cheers

Sainty

[jfc]

I dont allow for anything and have never had a window fail or leak . Glazing mastic and push the unit in hard and then mastic around it and push the bead in hard then pin the bead . 3mm thingy this drain hole that dont forget get to add a load of rubber gaskets oh and chuck in some brushes .........what a load of old twaddle ;D

[Telos]

jfc said:

I dont allow for anything and have never had a window fail or leak . Glazing mastic and push the unit in hard and then mastic around it and push the bead in hard then pin the bead . 3mm thingy this drain hole that dont forget get to add a load of rubber gaskets oh and chuck in some brushes .........what a load of old twaddle ;D

jfc.... you old dinosaur. ;D You've obviously been very lucky if you've never had any failures glazing like that. Modern glazing practice doesn't seem to have caught on everywhere in the UK yet... that doesn't mean the new ideas are a waste of time Even that old monolith TRADA is pushing the new methods.

Anyway, Sainty, I don't have time to post any details at the mo', if no one jumps in with any pretty pictures then I'll come back with some more details tonight or Sunday.

[jfc]

The main problem with all these gaskets and brushes etc is the amount of room you have on the material . Most of my work is replacing existing windows and i have 44mm to play with . With all these new ideas soon we will have 60mm thick windows and will need a 10mm gap just to open them

[nickw]

Am I right in thinking that this gasket stuff is double sided sticky? If so how many chances do you get to position the glazing unit properly? Also when the time comes to replace the unit how easy is it to get out, and how easy is it to remove the remains of the gasket, prior to installing new?

[Telos]

sainty said:

Cheers guys.

If i need 3mm for "glazing tape" (does this go on the outside, silicon on the inside?) my 44mm stock is starting to look a bit thin. I made a mock up rail/stile joint yesterday so I had something tangible and the rebate isn't leaving a lot of stock as it is. 44mm stock less 24mm glass, 3mm tape leaves 17mm split inside and out, 8.5mm. Perhaps I need to beef it up a bit.

Ok re-read this thread and you do use 50mm stock, which adds 6mm to my design. this leaves 11.5mm inside and out (or 10mm if the tape is both inside and out), which I'm a bit more comfortable with.

Drain holes?? A couple of 5mm holes drilled down through the bottom rail? Ok I'm guessing, any clues?

Thanks again.....If you thought that this was bad I have just started reading about stairs with bottom winders...now theres more than a few questions there! ;D ;D

Cheers

Sainty

.
I did try making a very long post explaining all of this but I realised you would be far better off reading this online book from TRADA which explains almost everything. (If you're not a member you can still register on the website for free.)

This drawing should show exactly what you need. Admittedly, this is a little over-kill for your project but I thought it might be nice to show how modern ventilated frames+glazing should be done.



The PE foam tape is one sided and stuck to the (painted!) rebate and bead, near the bottom so that a gap about 6mm deep is left to be filled with mastic.

If you put your beading on the inside for security reasons, then you can add ventilation holes by drilling through the bottom rail but it's not recommended. A better method is to use double sided security foam tape which sticks to the rebate and the glass and is almost impossible to remove without breaking the glass or beading. Using this method allows you to fit ventilated beading.

Also, never mitre your beading. The bottom ventilated bead should be 3 or 4mm short of the rebate width on both sides and the gap filled with mastic. The vertical beads should also stop short at the bottom and be filled with mastic. If you try to cut them accurately to length the paint finish will always fail at the joint, letting water in onto the end grain of the beading.

The glazing packers can be bought in all sorts of sizes, wedged and flat. If your bottom rail is sloped (as it should be) DO NOT use flat packers as the DG unit will fail on the unsupported edge.

This drawing shows the two different methods of ventilating the bottom bead:



Here's a few packer examples

and here's an MS Polymer mastic supplier (Hybriseal 2PS)

That should make things a little clearer