Hand planing

[modernist]

Funniest thread I've read in a long time ;D ;D
Shone a new light on planing entirely.

I think a karma is in order for the plane numbering

I don't usually go _{over there} since they deleted my threads for daring to question the Stasi (quivering pet lip; moi ) so I have to rely on entertainment here.

Keep up the good work

Brian

[jfc]

YOU got moderated aswell

[nickw]

Seems like its almost at the state where, to misquote:
A man who never got moderated never posted

[modernist]

Oct 25, 2008 8:22:00 GMT jfc said:

YOU got moderated aswell

'Fraid so - I had 1000 hits on a thread about JK and they didn't like the tone of the discussion which had moved around to criticising the moderation.

A started a new replacement thread and felt the edge of the axe on my neck not to mention pm's for not complying with the moderators wishes.

S*d 'em

I think the current sterlised forum _{over there} is frankly boring. Having said that I do like collecting good tools - to use - and hope there is a place here for those of us who value free speech, like a laugh, enjoy joinery and cabinet work, and enjoy taking a fine shaving, even if we don't have to make a living from it

Cheers all

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

I remember it well. ;D And that Tony character huffing and puffing like Tone of Tone Hall

cheers
Jacob

[jamesarthur]

Okay you lot what thread are you talking about I would love to read that. I don't post there since the exodus, too many wood machinests for my liking and to be true I don't post here often either.

However you have piqued my curiousty, so which thread, please?

[modernist]

Oct 30, 2008 12:24:15 GMT jamesarthur said:

Okay you lot what thread are you talking about I would love to read that. I don't post there since the exodus, too many wood machinests for my liking and to be true I don't post here often either.

However you have piqued my curiousty, so which thread, please?

It's gorn I'm afraid - ask Tony the Mod

I wouldn't have minded so much if it had been one of my periodic rants about thatcher but it was genuine stuff about Krenov which also tends to inspire heated debate.

Talking if JK have you heard the videos on FW? they sound a bit like a pre-epitaph. I think I would rather have remembered him by the image I had formed from his books r

[modernist]

got cut off in mid flow ;D

rather than the squeaky rendering we now hear.

I think Tony's point was that they took exception to me starting a second thread on the same subject after he had deleted my first and i failed to comply with pressure by pm. i seem to recall that a certain derbyshire window maker was identified as a major problem to the forum- some things never change ;D ;D.

cheers

Brian

[jake]

Dissing Krenov is the new blasphemy.

Why a bloke who built pretty naff and functionally irrelevant now very dated 70s furniture inspires quite that height of worship, I'll never understand. But I can only admit that over here.

[modernist]

Oct 30, 2008 19:14:34 GMT jake said:

Dissing Krenov is the new blasphemy.

Why a bloke who built pretty naff and functionally irrelevant now very dated 70s furniture inspires quite that height of worship, I'll never understand. But I can only admit that over here.

Would you like me to explain? ;D

Brian

[Dave S]

Oct 30, 2008 19:14:34 GMT jake said:

Dissing Krenov is the new blasphemy.

Why a bloke who built pretty naff and functionally irrelevant now very dated 70s furniture inspires quite that height of worship, I'll never understand. But I can only admit that over here.

Heretic!! ;D

Thing is, I can't come up with any reasonable argument against what you say and yet I really rather like some of his work. I don't worship him, but there is something about some of his work that just seems 'right' to me.

Wish I could work out why.

Btw, isn't it only pro's who slag him off, or is my memory failing me... ;D ;D

[modernist]

It's a long time since he started writing and, at the time, he was in a select bunch of "organic" designers who were a breath of fresh air to many of the stilted designs of the times. Many have indeed "dated", but not all - and these are the ones that matter and created his unique genre which still has value. This, in turn, created derivatives which has maintained many a furniture maker in business and still does 40 years on.

Many in the Arts and Crafts movement and their disciples held far more extreme views on disciplines e.g. sharpen the plane after every 6 strokes, pedalled by Loughborough college after the war, whilst producing octagon topped legs and other atrocities.

I think he was the first to describe the state of mind of seeing a design in a piece of timber and the feelings involved in releasing and realising that design and in the processes along the way. this was also a reaction to machine production. He included his tools in this thought process and whilst we might not all agree, obviously had the tools to do the job to his satisfaction without ever having to shell out for a LN, VTS or CTN.

On a simpler level surely many of you must have exerienced that you need to be fairly calm to do difficult work well. Its not an activity that responds well to a frantic approach.

Now, of course, we are treated to the obsenity of people selling his simple planes "complete with a shaving in the mouth by the master" what cr*p. This is just the usual commercial forces at work and he would laugh at such piousness.

I am currently floating in Conwy harbour in my boat but when I get back I'll post some pics of my own derivatives, in this case only designed and not made by myself.

I think he is like Charles Rennie Macintosh, his original designs are "of a time" but you see his influence everywhere

Cheers

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

I think he was the first to describe the state of mind of seeing a design in a piece of timber and the feelings involved in releasing and realising that design and in the processes along the way.

Not at all.
It's the sort of thing that all makers of any era or medium, would describe as part of their process. What JK did was to articulate this commonplace idea to an audience who had not heard it before - although to be fair he didn't claim it as his own. He just burbled on enthusiastically!
He also inspired this same audience by completely ignoring tradition and producing likeable stuff with some very simple, but poor quality, joints and methods.
This simpified "kindergarten" approach is a good way of getting people to start making things, and if it inspires a lot of beginners then it must be a good thing. But sooner or later they have to move on and look at the tradition, and stop making little cupboards on spindly legs, with sticking out tenons, as soon as possible ;D.

cheers
Jacob

[modernist]

Not at all.
It's the sort of thing that all makers of any era or medium, would describe as part of their process. What JK did was to articulate this commonplace idea to an audience who had not heard it before - although to be fair he didn't claim it as his own. He just burbled on enthusiastically!

No I don't agree with that. Some do, some don't and most don't care. True crafstmen yes but what JK did was describe the process in a way that was both accurate and appealing. Whats wrong with that?

He also inspired this same audience by completely ignoring tradition and producing likeable stuff with some very simple, but poor quality, joints and methods.

I don't think he completely ignored tradition but he certainly made some basic mistakes like unbraced coopered doors that were bound to move and jam. We have had the debate before about bridle joints but I doubt if many have failed in those applications which makes them fit for purpose.

But sooner or later they have to move on and look at the tradition, and stop making little cupboards on spindly legs, with sticking out tenons, as soon as possible ;D.

I like cupboards on legs, shapely, rather than spindly, which takes me back to my first point that like most people he did good and not so good (sorry didn't mean to sound PC good and bad then). The unbraced spindly legs were not good but those on his silver cabinet for example were wonderful in proportion and shape and sound in execution, as was the whole piece.

I think even Barnsley did sticky out tenons.

Cheers

Brian

[modernist]

Re the above here is the silver chest



Click on the above for a closer view

And here is my derivative table which I had made by a local cabinet maker but my own design



Brian

[modernist]

Just going back to the original subject of hand planing combined with my appreciation of JK I do differ from him in that I think we should be aiming for smooth surfaces. He suggested the evidence of hand planing was attractive but we aren't supposed to be producing tactile sculpture - but even that is arguable.

Also I've found and overview of the table with quilted maple veneer. V nice but a s*d to get to lay flat.



Feel free to pull it to bits - and the philosophy ;D

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

what JK did was describe the process in a way that was both accurate and appealing. Whats wrong with that?

Nowt. Good thing to describe and enthuse others.
All I'm saying is that art/craft has always been a two way process where the material is chosen for the product, the material influences the design of the product, and sometimes the material comes first and gives the concept of the product.
People have been picking out grain and other textures, patterns, forms etc and working around them from the beginning - cave paintings even. Sculptors supposedly talk of 'releasing the form within" etc.
It's a common idea, and in practice almost everybody will pick it up even if it remains sub-concious.
JK seems to have discovered it for himself, which is highly commendable! His follower also give him the credit. Where he gets a bit dodgy is in not quite putting them right - he allows this impression to linger that he has had this special insight.
Just read how he dodges and weaves in thisinterview but to give him credit he also talks of himself as an amateur, old beatnik etc. Who are we to argue?

cheers
Jacob
cooee I'm impressed by the table n chairs!

[modernist]

OK but look at this in context. Many people buy their furniture from MFI and know no better; much of the so called "craft" stuff may be well made in technical terms but dire in design. By definition mass produced stuff is just that - however good. Many people know of no hardwood other than oak, which they then often prefer stained to the point of obliteration. There was, and is, a need for education and change.

What he popularised was a link between art/design and craft, based on traditional standards, Malmsten (who was Swedish Arts and Crafts) etc with the artistic freedom of his times and sold it to a wide audience of both the traditionalists and new arrivals. Of course there were flaws but they should not obscure what he brought to cabinetmaking. His influence has outlived the vast majority of 60's and 70's style. One man cannot do everything, but his achievements deserve credit for what they were.

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

There was, and is, a need for education and change.

Yes but he was very much a late-comer. The modern movement had been started a long way back by Morris, Paxton, Bauhaus, Arts n Crafts Modernism, etc.
Not easy to see that JK added anything much - he just hit the zeitgeist at the right time and became a first point of entry for many newcomers.

What he popularised was a link between art/design and craft, based on traditional standards

In many ways he was old fashioned and conservative. He mentions Yanagi Soetsu a lot but I don't think JK had much idea of his significance:

"The philosophical pillar of mingei is “hand-crafted art of ordinary people” (民衆的工芸, minshū-teki kōgei?)
* made by anonymous crafts people
* produced by hand in quantity
* inexpensive
* used by the masses
* functional in daily life
* representative of the region in which it was produced."

I'd say that was a million miles from JKs world, tradition wasn't his thing, he knew f.a. about it - and and all that "Celebration of Craftsmanship" stuff has no connection at all!
Come to think - Mingei is closer to MFI, Ikea and Habitat, in principle.

Personally I think 'traditional" woodwork is waiting to be discovered, it's the elephant in the room which everybody ignores. Morris ignored it too - he harked back to an imaginary golden age of oak, not noticing that traditional woodwork and vernacular design was alive and well and going on all around him.

cheers
Jacob

[modernist]

The modern movement had been started a long way back by Morris, Paxton, Bauhaus, Arts n Crafts Modernism, etc.
Not easy to see that JK added anything much - he just hit the zeitgeist at the right time and became a first point of entry for many newcomers.

OK so he did, but I disagree with your last point. If he hadn't added anything why are there so many disciples and followers about - including me - maybe I was one of the ones who you note were pulled in late on. I'm glad I was. I had the concept of the table above rattling around in my head for a long time before it came to fruition. Clearly it owes a great deal to JK but - I hope - expresses it in a personal way.

In many ways he was old fashioned and conservative. He mentions Yanagi Soetsu a lot but I don't think JK had much idea of his significance:

"The philosophical pillar of mingei is “hand-crafted art of ordinary people” (民衆的工芸, minshū-teki kōgei?)
* made by anonymous crafts people
* produced by hand in quantity
* inexpensive
* used by the masses
* functional in daily life
* representative of the region in which it was produced."

I'd say that was a million miles from JKs world, tradition wasn't his thing, he knew f.a. about it - and and all that "Celebration of Craftsmanship" stuff has no connection at all!
Come to think - Mingei is closer to MFI, Ikea and Habitat, in principle.

This has always been the holy grail. Rarely achieved and then not for long, vis Habitat and IKEA, priced out and descent into tat respectively, both from admirable beginnings and Morris et al only available to the wealthy.

Personally I think 'traditional" woodwork is waiting to be discovered, it's the elephant in the room which everybody ignores. Morris ignored it too - he harked back to an imaginary golden age of oak, not noticing that traditional woodwork and vernacular design was alive and well and going on all around him.

I agree but it can be incorporated in a wide variety, maybe any and all, forms. "trad" and modern alike. At the same time we need to remain open minded to "developments" to move things forwards. I wouldn't like to be without MDF and biscuits for some jobs, where appropriate, but I wouldn't sell it as other than what it is, a convenient and effective solution for some applications.


Brian

[engineerone]

where i disagree with jacob is in my understanding of the way in which krenov was promoted or promoted himself.

he became more well known post the vietnam war where americans were adjusting to no longer being a war economy.
two things occurred, one the rapid increase in mass production there, and the growth of imports, particularly in the auto industry.

and a desire to have something special this is about the same time that the shaker design idea became more popular over there. remember this is the country that gave us tartan polyester trousers ;D

krenov and thomas moser captured opposite ends of the same market place where people were trying again to be individual and had the money to afford it.

whether either of them used proper construction techniques was not important what was was the fact that people looked more carefully at hand skills, and design that had a beauty of its own.

paul

[edsof754]

are we still at school? whats time milk break

[modernist]

Nov 2, 2008 2:41:26 GMT edsof754 said:

are we still at school? whats time milk break

Good of you to drop by - we look forward to your thoughts on the subject.

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

tartan polyester trousers

;D I bet you've got few pairs left Paul

are we still at school? whats time milk break

That'll probably be one of the disciples. People do get amazingly fervent about JK, its just that I can't see why, or what all the fuss is about. OK he makes quite nice quirky little cupboards - individualistic details, not necessarily worth copying!
e.g. why the peculiar hinges - expensive and difficult to fit, and you have to turn the panel round to make the stiles horizontal. Don't see the point.

cheers
Jacob

[gazza]

Nov 2, 2008 7:38:19 GMT modernist said:

Nov 2, 2008 2:41:26 GMT edsof754 said:

are we still at school? whats time milk break

Good of you to drop by - we look forward to your thoughts on the subject.

Brian

;D ;D ;D