spindle tooling

[stevep]

Hopefully I should be getting one of the cheap Fox spindles from Toolsave next week (they were very helpful by the way). Eric Stephenson's book is also on the way, as I thought it would help.
Now for the inevitable questions....
1. 6500rpm and 2 hp, so obviously not a big one. So what diameter rebating head do I need? For instance the 2 Whitehill blocks that Axminster sell are 100 and 125 mm dia.
2. Is 'Whitehill' a sort of generic name? Lots of people seem to sell Whitehill blocks - are they the best sort? Is it different to the CMT block?
3. Profile cutter sets - there are some cheap ones on eBay (eg block + 6 cutters/limiters for £100-£120). Should I avoid them ?
Again, there are Whitehill and other makes/types of profile cutter blocks - which is best?
4. Grooving - I'm inclined to ignore wobble saws from a safety point of view, and avoid adjustable groovers from a cost point of view. The Whitehill replaceable tip groovers look the business to me - am I right?
5. Grooving again - all the groovers I've looked at are at least 150mm dia, but the capacity of the Fox is 144mm. Can I still fit one of these (obviously I wouldn't try to lower it below the table, honest.)

Cheers
Steve

[jfc]

Steve , the 144mm is the dia of tooling so no you cant fit anything bigger without removing the horse shoe fence set up .
If you let us know what you want to do with it we can let you know what tooling you can get . Steer clear of the sets on ebay and buy a block and then the cutters when you need them . I bought the set for my first spindle and none of the cutters have been used .
One thing i would suggest ( but havnt tried yet so will update in the morning ) is to buy a 55mm block and use that for 40mm , 50 mm and 55mm cutters . That will save you buying all three size blocks . Maybe someone else knows if this would be ok ?

P.S. Have a word with cutting solutions about tooling , you will find you know him from another place .

[sainty]

I think the advice of buying tooling as and when you need it is pretty sound. When I bought mine, I made a list of all the goodies and knives that I wanted and thought would be useful. In the end after asking here, I have only bought what I need, when I need it, and it's probably saved me a heap of dosh.

I've just bought a wobble saw for the spindle, works like a dream, infinitely variable and much cheaper than the adjustable groovers. I must admit that I wasn't aware of the safety issues i.e. lack of tool self limiting device, until after I had got it. In hind sight, having used it a few times, I feel pretty comfortable with it. The spindle is a tool that deserves respect, my fingers never get near the block (or saw) and I keep all the guards in place.

Happy tool hunting!!!!


rgds



Stu

[stevep]

Hi Jason. Things I've done up to now have been English oak furniture - frame and panel stuff - usually with 8-10mm m and t joints which means 8-10mm grooves and either mitred stuck mouldings or stop chamfers on the 'show' side. Also kitchen unit doors, probably with scribed joints - painted softwood more often than not as I don't like mdf all that much, but maybe I'll have to allow for that as well.
Hence the need for a grooving cutter(s) of some sort, and the thought that replaceable TCT cutters are a good idea.
Maybe I can do without a dedicated rebate block to start with, and make do with a set of plain cutters on a profile block - like you said in the last thread like this, it's easy to spend more on tooling than the machine itself!

[jasonb]

I use one of the Omas 150mm wobble saws in my spindle with a home made hood/fence as the supplied one only takes 140mm. Never had any indication of it trying to kick the wood back and it can be easily adjusted for whatever panel width you need.

I have a 68mm alloy block that takes 40mm knives which I buy as & when I need them. You probably wont be able to use a much larger dia profile block with yours as the dia with knives will come close to your 144mm.

Go with teh 125mm rebate block as the cost difference is not much but you can get a 12mm deeper rebate with it. Get one with replaceable TCT knives & scorers.

Jason

[jfc]

I have a set of cutters and limeters that put an ovolo and rebate on a door stile and a set that scribe them that i got off the peg and fit into a 44mm x 100mm block . So that would be a cheaper way to go rather than something like the omas stacked set at around £700 . Your spindle has a sliding table if i remember ? You need that for the scribe .

[mrgrimsdale]

I have Omas type wobble saw too. Extremely useful and very safe as far as I can see, as long as you guard it well. It isn't prone to snatch like a saw blade, because it spins free in the slot as it cuts. Biggest hazard is the big teeth are invisible when it's spinning fast, so you need the guards.

[woodworker]

A dedicated rebate block is one of the best things you can buy imho.
You can get alloy versions of cutter blocks which are usually cheaper than steel and more friendly to you motor & bearings etc and good for small 2hp machines and it'll allow you to use bigger size blocks (less startup inertia than heavy steel ones).

We use wobble saws, they are not that much different to groovers and are safe to use. Another must have is an adjustable groover you won't believe the times you'll say" that was a best buy". Fixed ones are a bit limiting and you need so many different sizes. The beauty of adjustable is if you want to make finger joints for example you can shim to tenth of a mm or less for a perfect fit.

Whitehill is the name of a tooling company, they were the first firm to start selling safety cutter blocks (limiter devices etc) although they have been making spindle tooling long before that. They make some nice tooling, they made a name for themselves by selling cutters etc mainly for windows & doors, but they now make & sell lots of other items for spindle moulders.

They sell a nice Alloy & a Steel 95mm X 55 rebate block that takes some of their own cutters and also the Euro cutters, so a two in one so to speak.

As to cutter sets you see doing the rounds I'll bet you wont use more than maybe two in a set, the rest will be unused. Most people & firms I know get the cutters made to a design or from a piece of moulding or template as & when they need them.

Having said that there are some off the shelve cutters in the 40 to 50mm range that have multiple profiles on them and some of these are useful to have. you can get a scribe & profile set of cutters off the shelve in the 40mm euro cutter range excellent for making kitchen & cabinet doors, very good value for money.


hope this helps

[stevep]

Two Jasons and a saint - spoilt for choice! So wobble saws aren't that bad then? Nearest thing that I've used is the stacked dado set on my DeWalt RAS, which some people don't like, but its never bothered me.
Jason - yes, the sliding table was what finally decided it for me, it should be really useful.
Jasonb - I've found a 78mm CMT block, but not a 68mm one - do you remember what make yours is, or where it came from? I've been looking for a matched set of cutters for scribed joints but haven't managed to pick them out from the Axminster catalogue yet. Is the numbering system they use universal, or does it just apply to CMT cutters?
In the last three days I've learnt that I really don't know very much about spindles at all..... Thanks for all the help so far.

[sainty]

Nov 26, 2008 20:51:37 GMT stevep said:

In the last three days I've learnt that I really don't know very much about spindles at all..... Thanks for all the help so far.

It will only get worse before it gets any better. Wait 'till ypu spin it up for the first time - make sure that you have tightened everything that needs tightening!!!! ;D ;D ;D

rgds

Stu

[woodworker]

Nov 26, 2008 20:51:37 GMT stevep said:

I've found a 78mm CMT block, but not a 68mm one

I've not seen this size for a long time, popular amongst model makers etc.

Personally I would look for a (98mm or a bit bigger, the bigger slice the better quality the cut, less ripple effect etc.

Axminster cat CMT range look at No's 98 & 99 .
96 & 97 are scribe & profile inc

[jonnyd]

There are a few groovers available at 125mm which would suit your machine. Titman do some www.titman.co.uk/spindle_tooling.php but are quite expensive. Trend also do some but are non adjustable. I can recommend whitehill as most of my tooling is from them.

jon

[jfc]

I must add Steve that i have only had a spindle for a few years where as these guys have been using them since time began ;D
Some of them know a hell of alot more than me about it !
Mr G has some interesting ideas on making your own cutters to use in ( what is known as a whitehill block ) although whitehill are still trading selling pinned and limited blocks .

When i started out in tooling i decided that i only wanted modern pinned blocks as they are far safer . The first time you start it up you will see why ;D ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

You can make our own cutters for pinned and limited too. Dead cheap. SM is more tolerant of being slightly unbalanced compared to router so one cutter + one balancer set back a gnats, is OK

[jfc]

Are you saying that using a cutter with something like a rebate limeter to blank off the limeter part of a block is good practice ? I would say using a rebate limeter to blank off that part of the block is very bad practice even if it does half the cost of tooling .

[lynx]

i have just purchased a few items from whitehill. Nice and easy to setup with the pins as the limiters are already slightly lower than the cutter.

It is easy to make your own cutters but i find if your after scribes as well, just purchase a set from whitehill before you start the job.

[mrgrimsdale]

Nov 26, 2008 22:26:28 GMT jfc said:

Are you saying that using a cutter with something like a rebate limeter to blank off the limeter part of a block is good practice ? I would say using a rebate limeter to blank off that part of the block is very bad practice even if it does half the cost of tooling .

No I'm saying it's difficult to make an identical matching pair by hand although you can get close, but it doesn't matter if only one cutter is cutting with the other set back a mm, to not interfere. Limiters as normal - don't need to be dead accurate either.
This advice is highly deprecated - but you should see what we were up to in the bad old days. See Alf Martinssons 'Workshop Bible' whatever it's called.

[jfc]

Oh i thought you where saying that you could blank off the limeter with a rebate cutter and just buy or make the cutters . Of course that would be a very bad thing to do .

[lynx]

you can, but i wouldn't want to do it

[cnc paul]

Nov 26, 2008 22:44:58 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

Nov 26, 2008 22:26:28 GMT jfc said:

.
This advice is highly deprecated - but you should see what we were up to in the bad old days. See Alf Martinssons 'Workshop Bible' whatever it's called.

Hey Jacob,

I know Alf , he got out of the workshop before he lost his fingers.

I think it's called the Woodworkers Bible .... but not all of it is true to the Bible.



Paul

[jonnyd]

That would be a very bad thing to do i wouldnt do it ;D

[Dan Tovey]

The best thing I did after buying my first spindle moulder was to make a friend of my local saw doctor. He sorted me out with a second hand adjustable groover and rebate block.

I now also have a 50mm block and he makes cutters and limiters for me whenever I need them. I simply draw the shape I need or take him a sample if I need to copy anything.

I'm sure there is someone like him in most large towns.

[stevep]

So far I've decided on a 100mm x 40 CMT profile block alu, which comes with a set of plain cutters, so I'll be able to rebate. I've also selected 2 sets of profiles for jobs which I want to do in the near future. The nice man at Axminster measured the CMT for me, with a pair of cutters in, and it was around 130mm, so it should swing happily in my 144mm space.
Next up (when the above have paid me back) will be a Whitehill rebate block with replaceable blades and spurs. I think the replacement blades are quite reasonably priced.
After that, I'll have to think about a groover. Must admit, I'm still confused about these, having seen a photo on the Whitehill website (http://www.whitehill-tools.com/News.aspx ) which seems to show a cutter setup bigger than the hole in the table. I'll have to wait until I can actually see my fence arrangement in the flesh (delivery on Monday) to check whether the 144mm max cutter dia quoted by Fox relates to the fence or the hole in the table.
Thanks for your help everyone - been really useful.