PAR

[mrgrimsdale]

Dec 6, 2008 10:10:58 GMT dom said:

If you're doing joinery you can't, as others have said , afford the time to plane your own.

I don't think I could risk having someone else do it. Choosing the pieces and planing them is just as important as marking them up, mortice and tenoning etc. Not in any daft Krenovian 'With Wakened B***x' way - just practical, to get the optimum result, least waste etc.
Re £200 skips - I don't think I've ever put any wood in a skip, though I've taken a lot out over the years. It's either re-cycled or burned in a wood stove. Nor shavings - also burnt, or occasionally given away to horse owners etc. Some places sell shavings. There's a demand for oak for food smoking.

[gazza]

First thing you should have done lynx would be to phone the woodyard and ask what lengths they kept, then you could have worked from that. 2.4m for stiles and the 1.2 offcutt would have done a rail. reducing your waste. 40 % is a hell of a lot IMHO.

I find it strange that so many of you buy in PAR. This is the most important part of the job whatever it is. fair enough if you are lucky to be so busy that you cant justify the time to machine it, but as others have said why not just pass the job on to someone who can do the whole lot.

280m @ £4 per m / 2-3 days labour works out about the same costs, providing you have the machines capable of doing it.
Herein lies the problem i think.
you need a surface planer with at least 6' beds and a thickness capacity of 12" minimum. 3-4mm per pass.
Smaller capacities than that forget it.

I dont have anyone near me who would want to machine the timber properly, ie an experienced wood machinist. yes there are a few places that could shove it through their 4 sider but the blokes working it dont give a f**k what it comes out like, and dont even check it. ( must be similar to your chosen supplier lynx)

I find it more economic to machine all my own timber, and alot more satisfying.

[mrgrimsdale]

It occurred to me that lynx could go half way - buy the timber rough sawn and cut it to length himself, then take it to a skilled joiner who could plane it up. But this could fail - what happens when some of the pieces turn out unsuitable, too bendy, splits, knots etc. What does your machinist do? Cut them shorter? Plane them thinner? Only lynx can make these on-the-hoof decisions.
I think it makes no sense to do it other than in-house, yourself. It's taking control of the process and not leaving things to chance or to some other person's unskilled/uninformed judgment

[jrm]

I had no idea that so many joiners buy PAR. Maybe someone can help me out but I'm afraid I don't understand the economic argument that it's cheaper to get someone else to do it. Whoever planes your wood will have overheads and labour costs and will want to make a profit. If this adds up to considerably less than your own costs, I suggest there must be a good reason for this!

If it's because they spend less time and attention and/or are less skilled and therefore produce poor results, then it's a false economy. If it's because they have superior machinery, with the sort of amounts being discussed here you could buy machinery as good as theirs and do it yourself.

On the very odd occasion I've resorted to PAR (to save time) I've ended up with more work than if I'd done it myself and have resolved to never do it again - until I've forgotten the rotten experience, at least.

Maybe the true reason is because it isn't much fun standing there planing up wood for a week. But that's a different argument.

John

[sainty]

Fascinating reading. My own personal opinion, If you are a joiner, you should have the necessary skills and equiptment to be able to convert timber. I don't think that you necessarily need to do it for every job but when the need arises it makes sense to be able to do it yourself. I think that it makes sense to buy PAR, if you have a decent supplier and the price is reasonable - lets be honest most joinery items are made out of stock sizes, 4x2, 2x2 etc so let someone else take the strain.

I've never done the maths myself to make a comparison of one method vs the other but would guess that stock sizes are probably cheaper off the shelf, but if you want anything machined up as a special you are going to pay a premium.

For me, I'd rather have the necessary skills to be able to do it myself and have the option to buy it in. I prefer the control that it gives you in terms of quality and selection.

rgds

Stu

[jfc]

I've never done the maths myself

I have , its cheaper to put in a special order and let someone far better than me do the donkey work .

[engineerone]

and you told me you were happy working with the donkey ;D

surely it all comes down to knowing the woodyard, and being confident in their skills, plus their desire to keep you as a customer. sadly of course nowadays so few woodyards have skilled machinists, because they pay them so little.

in addition, of course it depends on the need you have to keep a large stock of finished stuff around.


paul

[jrm]

Sorry jfc, that sounds more like an assertion than an argument. The supplier uses 'a local joinery company' to prepare PAR for them. Presumably, the timber supplier adds a bit on for themselves too. So, how can it be cheaper? If it is, then there probably lies the problem - you tend to get what you pay for. But, at £4.00 per metre, I doubt that it's even cheaper. The average worker could easily match that rate on a decent planer/thicknesser, and that's before the hours of wrangling start to rack up.

I agree with Mr. Grimsdale that a lot of skill and knowledge is brought to bear when planing. Care at this, as with every other stage, makes the next and subsequent processes easier and quicker. If you have a stake in all parts of the job, you are highly motivated to save yourself work later on. If you are 'a local joinery company' preparing PAR for a competitor, do you give the work to the best machinist and tell him to take his time because the job needs doing well - or - do you give it to the grunt in the corner and tell him to shove it through the 4 sider and be quick about it?

John

[jasonb]

People seem to have misunderstood my £4.00/m. What I said that with my machines it would take 2-3 days plus disposal of shavings, set of knives etc which would be a cost of £1000. It cost me far less than £4/m to have the work done I DID NOT pay £4/m.

The reason it was cheaper is that my supplier has a large CI 300mm surface planer, band resaw with power feed, and 4sided plane. The combined labour rate for a machinest and laboured to take the outfeed is probably less than I can charge a day and they ran it out in less than a day.

As I am probably only in the workshop maybe 1/3rd of the year it does not make ecconomic sence to have such large machines standing idle, I have the skill and machinery for small batches buy long runs or large sizes I put out to others who know what I will and wont accept.

I think I have bought PAR in 3 times this year.
1. A couple of 100m of douglas fir for skirtings/architraves etc. didn't need to be too special and I could spend my time on site.
2. A load of 300wide by 75mm Iroko - I only had this thicknessed to 69mm as the sides were going to be cut, I would have had a job lifting the boards let alone feeding them through my 200mm wide P/T
3. The previously mentioned oak, 125m 110x15, 110m 90x30 and 20m 94x40 Tulip - A lot to run out in a small shop My time was better spent working on site and coordinating my subbies, plasterer, sparks, aga install, brickie etc all of whom I can make profit on as well as charging my time.

If I am making a decent bit of furniture I will buy in sawn, lay the boards out and work out what cuts suit the figure of the wood and machine to suit, this is reflected in how I price the work and what I charge for it.

Jason

[mrgrimsdale]

Dec 6, 2008 22:52:59 GMT jfc said:

I've never done the maths myself

I have , its cheaper to put in a special order and let someone far better than me do the donkey work .

It'd be even cheaper for your client to buy a door from B&Q in the first place.
Jason you seem to think planing is difficult. It isn't, it's a dead basic simple skill. Anybody can do it - as long as you cut to length first. Planing a whole 3.3 metre board on the other hand is very difficult with a small planer, but not impossible - saves paying someone else though.

[mrgrimsdale]

Dec 7, 2008 8:01:21 GMT jasonb said:

People seem to have misunderstood my £4.00/m. What I said that with my machines it would take 2-3 days plus disposal of shavings, set of knives etc which would be a cost of £1000. It cost me far less than £4/m to have the work done I DID NOT pay £4/m.

The reason it was cheaper is that my supplier has a large CI 300mm surface planer, band resaw with power feed, and 4sided plane. The combined labour rate for a machinest and laboured to take the outfeed is probably less than I can charge a day and they ran it out in less than a day.

As I am probably only in the workshop maybe 1/3rd of the year it does not make ecconomic sence to have such large machines standing idle, I have the skill and machinery for small batches buy long runs or large sizes I put out to others who know what I will and wont accept.

I think I have bought PAR in 3 times this year.
1. A couple of 100m of douglas fir for skirtings/architraves etc. didn't need to be too special and I could spend my time on site.
2. A load of 300wide by 75mm Iroko - I only had this thicknessed to 69mm as the sides were going to be cut, I would have had a job lifting the boards let alone feeding them through my 200mm wide P/T
3. The previously mentioned oak, 125m 110x15, 110m 90x30 and 20m 94x40 Tulip - A lot to run out in a small shop My time was better spent working on site and coordinating my subbies, plasterer, sparks, aga install, brickie etc all of whom I can make profit on as well as charging my time.

Well yes if you are working as a builder you buy stuff in

If I am making a decent bit of furniture I will buy in sawn, lay the boards out and work out what cuts suit the figure of the wood and machine to suit, this is reflected in how I price the work and what I charge for it.

Jason

Well yes if you are working as a joiner you do it yourself .

What this thread all about IMHO is that many of us started off odd jobbing with PAR and simply assumed that this is how it's done. It isn't.

[nickw]

On the £200 skip thing, I rent one of those big wheely bins from my local waste disposal contractor at £5/month, fill it with all my shavings, dust and offcuts and they take the contents away for another £5 per lift. It is then composted. Cheap and green.

[dom]

I have done the Math.
If I had to stand there planing wood for two or three days, the loss of earnings would be too high.
Those days can be spent finding more work, talking with customers or using the ready planed timber.
My time is worth more than the extra the timber yard charges.
As I said, if you find the right timber yard it's worth it.
If you are only knocking up the odd piece of furniture, then yes you must plane your own, if you have a workforce of a considerable size, agaoin yes plane your own, if on the other hand you work alone or perhaps two or three of you and you have sufficient work then you should get it prepared

[mrgrimsdale]

Dec 7, 2008 0:54:33 GMT engineerone said:

and you told me you were happy working with the donkey ;D

surely it all comes down to knowing the woodyard, and being confident in their skills, plus their desire to keep you as a customer. sadly of course nowadays so few woodyards have skilled machinists, because they pay them so little.

in addition, of course it depends on the need you have to keep a large stock of finished stuff around.


paul

A lot of woodyards do no machining at all beyond re-sawing. It's not their job. Many do a bit on the side, but not necessarily very well. Some machine vast amounts for stock for sale, but even then, doing it to order may not be what they are good at.

[jfc]

Jason you seem to think planing is difficult.

No i dont . Using a surface planer is one of the first things i was taught in a three year course of woodwork machinery . I know how to do it but i dont think its worth the saving . If i have enough timber in stock to do a job then i will prep it to the sizes i need as that is 100% profit . If i need to buy it in then i order it to be prepared for me as the saving is so little . Lets say you save 10 % ? Moulding the sections on the other hand saves around 40 % and you controll the amount of stock you use saving another ?%

[gazza]

There are always plenty of posts from members regarding which P/T they should buy. reasoning behind this is that its simply too expensive to buy in PAR.

Yes if you are on good terms with the supplier and they have a competent machinish who understands what you need, and you are ordering regularly with fairly big orders you may well save some money.

But for the smaller outfit it is quite the opposite (from my experience)




For me to buy in my timber PAR it almost doubles the cost.( Hardwood) So i dont do it.

How does planing your own timber only save you about 10%, but moulding it yourself save you 40% ?? dont quite follow
Surely you could get it all done at once from the same supplier ??
If not why not ??

[modernist]

I think Imay be swimming against the tide here but I always buy rough sawn timber for jobs other than simple joinery. For example I have just bought some PAR redwood for workshop benches but rough sawn douglas fir for windows.

To be honest I have never done the time/cost thing it was more to do with getting the sizes and accuracy I wanted and avoiding scant stock. I do think the cost of the species you are using is important. I'm not going to convert my own 2 x 2 redwood for carcassing, if I'm going to use it at that, but since you're going to refinish anything decent in any case what are you gaining by paying for PAR?

I think the point about yield above is valid. If you can get 22-23mm out of inch stuff why put up with the 19mm you may get in PAR?

cheers

Brian

PS I'll be back the political debates later - I'm up to the eyes moving my aged parents this week ;D

[jfc]

How does planing your own timber only save you about 10%, but moulding it yourself save you 40%

6x1 sawn = 90p per lin m
6x1 par = £1 per lin m
6x1 ogee skirting board = £4 per lin m

not exact prices but you get the idea .

[gazza]

At those prices i can see your point
I assume thats for redwood ?
6 x 1" is a pretty common size available as PAR most places.

Not so for hardwoods.

My timber yard only supplies hardwoods, with the exception of SY pine and Pitch. They dont machine anything, just sell wood ;D
For me to buy the timber, take it to a company who could machine it for me, wait a couple of weeks until they could fit me in, ect ect, its cheaper to do it myself.

If i was using redwood i would almost certainly buy it off the shelf already PAR as it is readily available in most sizes that would suit most jobs.

[engineerone]

i think that you will find many of the enquiries about buying pt's are based on what one ought to do, not necessarily on what is both practical and time saving.

when one does these jobs oneself, it is easy to underestimate the cost of ones time. however, when buying already machined product you know from the get go.

i bought a small pt, because i tend to buy small quantities of off cuts, so it makes more sense. however, were i doing more volume work, i would feel that in most cases my time would be better spent actually making rather than preparing, especially since i do not believe anybody can actually be profitably employed when working for themselves, for more than about 30 hours in a so called 40 hour week. paperwork, invoicing, selling and collecting supplies are timeconsuming parts of the daily grind. even answering the telephone cuts down on the time you can spend making.

if you have a fixed number of jobs which each week mean you have to have a set of stock items, then it could be proved i guess that either makes sense financially. however, if you are doing different jobs each week, then in all likelihood par is a better economic decision.

so i'm along with dom and jason
paul

[jfc]

I dont buy softwood off the shelf for my joinery i order unsorted redwood .

[jrm]

Are we comparing like with like? The original post was concerning a quantity of expensive hardwood ordered as a one-off special batch for a job requiring a high quality of fit and finish. While the overhead for PAR softwood may be as little as 10% when produced in truly industrial quantities, it could be anything up to 100% for a high quality hardwood.

I'm not convinced by those who claim to have 'done the math' (again, provided we are talking about hardwood). I can understand the pressures for anyone up to their ears and buying PAR could obviously increase turnover but it can only be more profitable if the suppliers time is cheaper than your own. If you can find someone to prepare timber to your own standards who's willing to work for nothing, good luck to you. If it were so easy and not fraught with problems, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It just needs a bit of organisation and a couple of well set up roller stands - you don't need two machinists!

[mrgrimsdale]

As well as the 'yield' of getting thicker pieces (could mean buying thinner stock) there are at least 2 other reasons for DIY planing for stock control:
You work through your cutting list in the ordinary way: strictly biggest components first from smallest piece available.
This saves waste as you are systematically using up all your shortest lengths.
But you may also have to choose between equal alternative lengths.
This sounds anathema to your enthusiastic amateur but; if you have 2 or more alternative pieces which would suit a component you should always choose the worst one. In this way you are continually upgrading your stock.
e.g. if you have a big knot in a piece of 4x1, if it is usable you should use this in preference to a clear bit, because if you later need to rip the remaining piece into 2 pieces 2x1" the knot may make them unusable, even waste.
So you are continually setting aside your best bits until either you have to, or you need to, use them.
Paradoxically, this will improve the quality of your finished products in the long term.
The paradox being that you struggle to obtain the best quality material, but then proceed to give preference to the worst of it

Lots of hidden benefits in DIY, beyond the over simple cost comparison!

[jfc]

It doesnt matter what i order the machine costs for them to PAR are very little compared to sawn and it gets faced and edged before going through a thicknesser buy a guy that has been doing the same job for fourty years . Thats all he does . Neppie is on the spindle and thats all he does . If i have a problem with the timber they redo it without even looking at it because they know i wont complain unless i seriously cant use it . If i can use it on the next job i let them know that and it gets sorted that way . They dont send me crap because they know i wont take it but on the other hand i dont give them crap by compaining about every defect . I also tell them what the job is for so they know what i need .

[mrgrimsdale]

Well if it's working don't mend it! Sounds like you are lucky with your arrangement, Jason.