PAR

[lynx]

If you ask for a timber supplier to send £5k worth of PAR hardwood, and you stated that it has to be straight and not sappy and you are paying for 40% waste then do you have the right to refuse any timber that does not fall into your standards (straight and sapless)

[dom]

Yes, I wouldn't even take it off the truck.
Let them get away with it once and they'll take you for a mug.

[jfc]

If you ask for £10 worth and its not good enough then send it back !
I buy all my timber PAR and the timber yard knows i will take the bowed stuff if i can use it ( cutting it into shorter lengths ) I would take a look through and accept the bits i could use and send the rest back . You will have more chance of getting what you want that way .

[cnc paul]

Send it back, next time they will try harder.


Paul

[jonnyd]

I would send it back or ask for a sales rep to come and see it or negotiate a discount. What timber is it and how much not to spec?

[lynx]

it has gone back, twice. I'm now down to the last few pieces that they are stating i can use. It's meeting stiles for french doors so i need then straight. They reckon they are, so it looks like a heated session on the phone monday.

[lynx]

it's sapele, i can't even get the rep to ring back. I'm now looking at alternative suppliers now.

[jfc]

Thats my point , if they are stiles for a door i tell them it has to be spot on . Not a bit ok but spot on . If i am ordering for doors i will try and get all the stiles and rails in longer lengths so i can pick the best ones . It is after all a natural product .
I had champion timber sending me out all sorts of crap at one point ( from a builder that was supplying materials ) In the end i spoke to the manager and explained that he was wasting everyones time in sending out this rubbish as i cant use it and this was the very reason i didnt use his timber yard even though Timbmet tried to put my orders through them . The perfect stuff turned up the next day .

[engineerone]

if you reject it, it is not up to them to tell you, you are wrong.

if you have had to send so much back that you have not even got the 40% spare, then they are not actually complying with the contract they have entered in to.

if you have specified what you want, then you should not have to inspect it all to decide whether it meets your spec. if you sell things then it is your obligation to provide that which is ordered.

i recently bought an sd card, i was offered and billed for a kingston, but have actually been sent a brand called transend,
of which i have never heard. the supplier has been informed, and since i have other dealings with them i am not being too heavy, and in one way since it is less than a fiver, it is not worth hassle, indeed on other products they have been very good in terms of refunds or replacements, so i will not push it, however, it is a breach of the sale of goods act. but in this case it is a private sale, and the powers that come to me are greater.

with a trade sale, certain other conditions apply, so in that case use a credit card, then claim back off the credit card company

but certainly lynx unless you can talk to the manager/owner, and get some sense, then you need to find a new supplier who is prepared to deliver what you ordered.

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Did I understand £5k worth of PAR sapele for doors?
Not good way to buy. Some of it will come off the machine straight but will start bending slowly from then on. Some of them will be bent before they start and to get them straight will be impossible.
Also extremely wasteful PARing long lengths.
If you must buy PAR it should be in shortest lengths suitable - i.e give them your complete cutting list and tell them to cut to lengths BEFORE planing.
Better still - buy a planer/thicknesser and do it yourself the proper way i.e. cut everything to length before planing - you then select straight bits for the longest lengths and save bendy bits for the shortest. Vast reduction in waste and cost. At £5k you should be able to buy the wood (rough sawn) and the planer, get a better end result, and still have something left over - including a shiny new planer for the next job ;D.
The poor old woodyard are simply trying to oblige someone who has given them an impossible order. Perhaps they should have explained this and told you to eff off! ;D ;D

[tusses]

yebut !

if you can do it yourself with your own planer thicknesser ... why cant the woodyard ? if thats what they say they will provide, then they can work out a cost for providing it ?

sure it will be more expensive, but they could do it !

[jfc]

I tell them what the job is for and make my cutting list to give them half a chance to get at least four bits spot on ( on doors ) I trust that the machinest there is a sh*t lot better than me so if he is having trouble then im f*ck*d .

[mrgrimsdale]

Dec 5, 2008 22:15:15 GMT tusses said:

yebut !

if you can do it yourself with your own planer thicknesser ... why cant the woodyard ? if thats what they say they will provide, then they can work out a cost for providing it ?

sure it will be more expensive, but they could do it !

Well yes - but I assume they didn't get a detailed cutting list. They just got an order for PAR. They probably thought 'this looks bonkers but he must know what he is doing'

[lynx]

MrG, it was 4 cubic metres of sapele. I couldn't machine that on my own. It was hard enough to lift some of the cill sections let alone the sawn boards. I needed to get it in PAR to save time. Still this was 3 weeks late because the accounts department wouldn't clear the order, but no-one told us until we phoned to ask why it was late!!

I am a bit pissed off with the lengths supplied, and have let them know this too. 2400mm asked for and 3800mm supplied. What the hell do i want a 1200mm offcut for??

Lucky the client wants more doors, so i can try and use the smaller offcuts but it makes you wonder.

Anyway, this company is no longer going to be used. I'm in the workshop from 1:30pm till late monday till wednesday as the wife works in the mornings these days. These monkeys know that but still turn up early morning and you don't find out until it's a week late and the timbers has been sat outside in there yard because no-one was there to take delivery!!. This is a big supplier too

[tusses]

go on then .... who ;D

[jake]

Dec 5, 2008 22:25:53 GMT lynx said:

What the hell do i want a 1200mm offcut for??

That's what they've got, and they think the same thing, unfortunately.

[lynx]

it was a detailed cutting list. Descriptions on all parts with finished lengths, all broken into deferent sections etc.

I even had the sales rep explaining to my wife about snipe, and that the boards come longer to cut that out. OK, fine, but how the b*ll*cks do you cut a 3mm section removed from planer knives in the middle of a stile then....... Looks like the machinist fell asleep on the job.

These people have a large 4 sider. Rip on bandsaw, straighten edge on P+T, run thought 4 sider. It no good trying to bend the board into the bed of the 4sider, it'll only come out the same way.

I even asked for 24mm boards for curved heads. some turned up with nearly half the face still sawn at 4400mm long. How the hell did this leave the machine without someone noticing.

[mooretoolsplease]

I buy 90% of my timber in PAR, one company I use is for standard hardwood sections off of a price list. The other company machines upto suit.
With the quantity that gets used in my shop, more often than not it is cheaper to buy in PAR than it is the sawn timber! thats before I have PAR'd it, an any other details required.
I usually ask for a specific length, but always do tell them that if they dont have it at that length, to make sure I have a useable offcut. the amount of times I have asked for a 3.0m board and been sent 3.3m is endless, thats 10% wastage before I even start!

[mrgrimsdale]

Yebbut the point is that you are asking them to do your joinery - beyond and above their skill as timber suppliers. You could do better buying the sawn timber and taking it to a skilled joiner to plane up. While he's at it he might as well make up the doors too.
Basically this isn't how you do it if you are a joiner yourself. I know Jason does it, but as soon as he gets his own planer/thicknesser he will realise the error of his ways ;D

I went through all this myself when I started out - loads of planed up and cut to length timber supplied, but all crap. Come to think - this was for a set of pitch pine shaker style cupboards; if the stuff had been any good I would have been a furniture maker from the beginning, instead of a joiner. All part of the learning curve

I even asked for 24mm boards for curved heads. some turned up with nearly half the face still sawn at 4400mm long. How the hell did this leave the machine without someone noticing

To get straight 24 mm boards, or even just planed both sides, at 4.4M, you have to start at 50mm thick!
If they were cut to length first you should be OK with 36 sawn, or 30 if they had it, which is unlikely.

[jfc]

Even on my fox ( my first planer thicknesser , kids toy) i only get snipe on the last 50mm . The timber yards i use have no snipe , thats why i use them . The sales man is bullshitting , c'mon , you know that dont you ?

[jonnyd]

Good luck for that phone call on monday morning sounds like youve got good grounds for complaint.

[mrgrimsdale]

Me no snipe particularly. Esp if it's a run where you feed in the next piece against the one before to make it continuous.

I am a bit pissed off with the lengths supplied, and have let them know this too. 2400mm asked for and 3800mm supplied. What the hell do i want a 1200mm offcut for??

They don't want it either!
But if you buy stock in the ordinary way and work your cutting list from shortest lengths first in the proper way you are unlikely to have anything at 1200 which you would count as waste. Unless everything you make is huge.
Doors and windows shouldn't produce waste longer than say 600mm, and not much at that length.

[tusses]

I do agree with grim tho ... I do all mine myself.

but I go pick out the waney edged boards too , so that helps a bit !

I realise others might not have the luxury and time to self pick, but I find it worth it.

[jonnyd]

If run through a four sided planer it is very difficult to avoid snipe.

[lynx]

i know he's bullshitting, he knows it too, thats why the little b*st*rd phoned my misses. I told her to put the f'ing phone down and get that little b*st*rd to ring me. He didn't ring, hmmmmmmm


One of the problems here, is that the suppliers use a local joinery company to plane the timbers, so i think it's time they looked elsewhere too.

mrG this photo is a third of the timber. The shortest length is 3300mm, thats a fair bit of timber to be planing on a small P&T single handed don't you think. How many times would you have to empty the extractor for that lot? How long would that take too