Drawers (again)

[trousers]

Sorry - but I didn't want to highjack Brians' thread so started a new one.
Anyway I'm also making drawers for the workshop - ply boxes with softwood fronts (to use up stuff), and these will be lay-on type, all 30 of them and yes I am trying to keep things tidy (and no I don't have an OCD).
So my question is - since there would be end grain visible at each end of each draw front, even if I bevelled them, does the panel think I should lip them instead? So that would be 120 lips . Or am I being tooooooo fussy?

[paulchapman]

Dec 23, 2008 21:43:56 GMT trousers said:

Or am I being tooooooo fussy?

Yes - and what's wrong with end-grain

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

how about answering the really silly question
where is the end grain going to show? and why

surely if you cover the plywood with a false front, that covers any end grain forward on the ply

or are you worried about the end grain on the false front, in which case have you looked at ALL DRAWERS, they all show end grain on the side ;D

the other thing is of course to use a mitre lock joint made by your router.

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

If you don't want end grain why not omit the false fronts and use the softwood for a normal flush drawer front? A tiny bit more work but a much neater job. Less trouble than lipping the false front ends - which sounds a thoroughly bad idea anyway.

[modernist]

Also how are you proposing to join the plywood? (Not that I'm anyone to ask this week )

Brian

[trousers]

Paul C - nothing really except I thought it may look neater if none were visible
E1 - end grain on false front silly ;D
Mr G - neater is subjective really
Brian - I was proposing 12mm ply for sides, back and front with grooves to take a 12mm ply bottom. The back and front will be rebated at each end and glued/pinned to the sides. FE runners and reclaimed floorboards on the front. I did think about comb joints for the corners (for about a nanosecond).
I'm sure I detect lippings on drawers on a project which is in a projects thread (over there). However - I think Jacob is right, too much of a faff.

[modernist]

Depending on what you are going to put in them you are asking quite a lot of glued and pinned sides in 12mm material. I hesitate to recommend dovetails but they are OK in plywood if you have the time (see Jacobs high speed dovetail thread) If you can live with that you could lap dovetail them directly into the fronts.

My second point is that plywood makes bad drawer side material as it is very poor as an end grain bearing surface and erodes the runners very quickly. You can overcome this by using slips.

We could have a post mortem to test the outcomes of our approaches. In my case I was also trying to use up a pile of MDF offcuts.

Best of luck

Brian

[jasonb]

If you keep the draws shut no-one will see the end grain

I don't think its an issue for the workshop, I've just done a kitchen with 26 DT oak draws with layon false fronts in 30mm oak and the end grain is not a problem, in fact you may get more of a problem with the cross grain lipping.

What quality of ply are you using, birch, draws-side ply or just WBP? For ply draws on runners I would use 18mm for the fronts rebated 12x12 and, 12mm sides groove(dado) at the back approx 20mm in and a 12mm back set into the groove. The back would be cut short so the ply base can be slipped in after glueup.

Jason

[trousers]

I've been thinking about this some more whilst I was peeling the sprouts ;D
The strength in a drawer is in the sides and bottom, the front and back just stop all your junk falling out. I looked at some
factory supplied kitchen draws which have metal sides (which incorporate the runners) and cradle the MFC bottom, with a back and the front of your choice simply screwed on.
The ply I have is WBP (chinese apparently ) so I was thinking 18mm sides grooved to accept a 12mm bottom, a 12mm back into dados in the sides a la JB's suggestion, and the front into rebates in the sides also a la JB's suggestion. If I glued the whole Jewson lot surely that would carry some good weight (on decent full extension slides). Then add the fronts and bobs your uncle and fannys your aunt. Sod the end grain - wish I'd never mentioned it

[engineerone]

bloody lateral thinking again trouser

you are wrong in one thing, the sides are in fact very important, and that is why the b&q ones are metal. where they actually fail is at the front or the rear, because of the pulling moment. in general, the screws are in fact too short to last properly.

in part that is what killed mfi, there screw drawers failed too soon.
think about is, the pulling on the front is causing an expansion pull on the sides, and then closing is compression. screws in fact are not made to handle those loads on a constant basis, no matter what ikea's g doiik machines suggest ;D

anyway it's christmas, maybe time to recieve presents, and then dispose of some things, then have less heavy stuff to store ;D

paul

[jasonb]

I'd add a few 1 1/2" pins to each of the joints for good measure as well as the glue, will also save having to clamp them all up.

Jason

[trousers]

Paul, we agree - the sides are where the strength is. Yes it is Christmas and I think you've been on the sherry cos I'm not sure I followed the rest of your thread ;D
JB - good tip about the pins as I am seriously compromised in the clamp department.
These drawers are going in a bench build and a tool chest so I feel a wip coming on if I ever get the time to start. P'raps I ought to learn how to post pics as well - it might help

[stevep]

Drawers made from scrap ply, 12mm sides, 9mm front and back. The front and back pieces are half-lapped, glued and screwed to the sides (skinny 35mm screws I seem to remember), then glue blocks added. If I'd had enough 12mm ply I'd have used it for the fronts as well, and pinned from the sides into the front instead. The softwood was reclaimed from a skip - lovely old stuff that planed up beautifully. 3 coats of Danish oil and some Screwfix handles. I made them about 6 years ago, hence the rich colour of the softwood. Nothing heavy in the drawers though - they're just bedroom units. The carcases are mdf, painted with a roller.
If it was a traditional piece of furniture I wouldn't use planted drawer fronts, but I can't see anything wrong with end grain being visible on things like this.