Marking out

[jfc]

I've just spent the evening marking out two windows that are a rush job . As we all know marking out is a boring job so i got to thinking

1. Does everyone mark out every part to machine or do they mark one out and set up stops on the machines . ( This job was marking out 54 parts , alot of them the same . )

2. Why is Dom so nasty to me

3.How do i stop Dom being nasty to me

4. When will Andy stop sending me every bloody joke he knows by text message .

;D Told you it was a boring job .
Anyway i was taught to mark out every part rather than trust machine stops so i just wondered what others do ?

[dom]

1. I mark out and set stops

2. Because I am the devils little helper

3. You Can't

4. Because he doesn't know how to put telephone numbers onto his mobile and yours is the only one he has got.
;D

[gazza]

Depends on your machine stops, whether they are quality enough to be trusted.
Personally, if one or two ,mark out, but for anything repetive, stops (correctly set and checked) always. sometimes their can be too much room for error when it gets boring
Cheers,
Gazza.
Ps Why is Dom nasty to you ?? S**T too slow for the master again

[colincott]

Hi Jason

As for number 3 , you should talk to a man that can ;D


But don't tell anyone

[engineerone]

surely this would be the point for jacob to come along and suggest you use a "ROD"

that way you can check your stops on a regular basis, but only mark out once ;D

as for stopping dom, well you invited him in, and you also gave andy your number

paul

[jfc]

Paul , i always use my first mark out as a template / rod , every part gets marked from that one peice . The problem i can see with setting stops is i size my timber to roughly what i need and then mark out with a 10mm horn (for construction joinery) Having to size all the timber to the mm before i even mark out sounds like a waste of time to me . Ok it took two hours to mark out every part but i know i can go in the workshop in the morning and not have to set anything up and know everything is going to fit perfectly


















ish ;D

[andy]

jfc said:

4. When will Andy stop sending me every bloody joke he knows by text message .

Cus I've got nothing better to do and as you have never sent me any assumed I was your only mate

[jfc]

I have friends i do ......... Honest

[engineerone]

jason i am like you not completely sure about rods, i guess in my case it is lack of practice and knowledge.

as an engineer, i would tend to mark once and then set up for series cuts.

however as i do more woodworking i find it more difficult.

i have not yet started too often where i leave things too much overlength when cutting, although i do of course see the advantage in certain circumstances.

my feeling is that marking each piece is in real terms a long term time saver, cause you can make each piece go in a specific place, rather than do what i have recently done, and misplace them

for me at this time, lacking practice, i often make things, then forget where they are going, or clean them up and lose the place.

and as for hand made dovetails on a drawer, how you can guarantee the two sides and the ends will be proper length pairs i have yet to determine ;D

as for having friends, what are they

paul

[dom]

In think, if you don't use a rod then marking up each individual piece is a dangerous idea, it just leaves you open to more errors.

[jfc]

Marking from a pattern IS a rod , you just use the rod .

[mrgrimsdale]

I make a rod and then mark up everything from it - and put in every mark. Yes I use stops too, but only for any repeated same-length cutting on the TS before marking up, so only roughly to length.
Marking everything takes time e.g. 4 sash windows; 100 or more main components takes most of a day to mark, but once done you are on auto pilot and you can do everything quite quickly and confidently, without necessarily even knowing which part you are dealing with, as long as it is all marked up.
I've been at it for some time, have tried everything and I don't think there is a better way - every short-cut risks getting it wrong.
If you try to set stops for all the various details you be at it for days, going back to the drawings, checking, re-measuring etc etc.
With a rod you measure/calculate/mark once only for the whole job and if youv'e marked up properly you don't make any mistakes at all, except that some of the cuts are likely to be slightly less precise than if set to stops. But with stops it's really easy to cut stuff precisely but innacurately e.g. all the pieces precisely 100mm too short ;D
This is why the engineering approach is so misleading - no degree of precision makes up for basic inaccuracy - a manky old tape measure can be more accurate than a micrometer, although much less precise, depending on how you use it.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

my only concern about the rod is the perceived ability to exacerbate the errors.

by that i mean if for instance you are using a pencil to put in the marks, as the pencil gets blunter, or you move from one piece to another i worry about moving the point of pivot so that over a number, say 50 pieces, they are in fact marked a little off on each one. pencil thickness on each one can add up over the whole job, so how do you avoid this???

who agrees accuracy and measuring are not the same
paul

[Alf]

Paul?

DON'T USE A BLOODY PENCIL!

Ha hum, sorry... Knife, awl, pen even. Pencil's have their place of course, but if the thickness of the line as it wears is going to be an issue, then it's not the right choice.

Cheers, Alf

[engineerone]

but alf, even with a knife you can tip it over, and not mark in exactly the same place every time

or have you all with practice developed the ability to be correct EVERY time

i agree about not using a pencil, but how then do you highlight the marks

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

With pencils there is this thing called sharpening - they aren't like biros yer know ;D
No but anyway - you are marking up all the time from the one original rod so the probability is exactly the same degree of accuracy/error with every mark.
I don't use a knife except for dovetails - makes a starter for the chisel. Not that I do dovetails very often.
I have a feeling that knives were also used for indelible marks - when a piece would go from a setter-out to a bench worker praps. I've seen old windows where mortices are marked only on one side with a knife (by the setter out?) and taken around the piece with a pencil mark (by the joiner?).

cheers
Jacob

[davyowen]

engineerone said:

by that i mean if for instance you are using a pencil to put in the marks, as the pencil gets blunter ... so how do you avoid this???

www.euroffice.co.uk/I/chg/Bicmatic-Autopencil-Black-07mm-%5BPack-12%5D



They don't go blunt, and the point is smaller than any pencil I've ever been able to sharpen myself.

[Alf]

engineerone said:

but alf, even with a knife you can tip it over, and not mark in exactly the same place every time

Then don't tip it over, silly. ;D (That's what the single bevel knives are for, so you can run the flat side reliably against your square or whathaveyou)

Jacob, I think perhaps we need to bear in mind the difference between large joinery and fine furniture making...?

Cheers, Alf

[mrgrimsdale]

Large joinery: 2B to HB pencil
Fine furniture: 2H pencil
Knife: anywhere where it helps the cut: joinery, furniture, cakes etc. And also anywhere where it wants to be indelible, e.g. timber framing.
IMHO

cheers
Jacob
PS or 4H pencil for very fine work - hard enough to leave a distinct groove permanent mark

[jaco]

I have got a couple of Pentel Techniclick 0.5mm that i use, and a lot of oranary pencils.

[dunbarhamlin]

I couldn't get away with new fangled propelling pencils - kept breaking the lead in the grain, so I've taken to using a clutch pencil - thick lead, between 1/8" and 1/4" (no - that's not 3/16", they come in different sizes ) with an integral sharpener at the other end, full range of hardnesses as well as white/blue/red leads, and available from art shops.
I only use pencil where precision isn't required though - face marks, rough dimensioning, setting out tails (which I do first - oh, and only if it's closer than a pen or scratch) etc, or to highlight a knife mark.

Steve

[mrgrimsdale]

I was pondering about marking up today cos I’ve been making a copy of two old sashes, just the top and bottom lights, not the casing.

Hence horizontal components are 4 rails and 2 glazing bars.
The glazing bars are identical but all the other bits are different from each other.
The mortices for the vertical glazing bars are all in the same position, but the same marks on the horizontal glazing bars are for stub tenons instead.
The tenons on the top and bottom rails are same in plan, but different in elevation.
All the marks on the meeting rails match the other rails except they are offset - each rail having a projecting bevel but on opposite sides. I can’t make them the same and turn one over as you might expect, because the mortices have non parallel sides as the design has bevels instead of mouldings - and in any case one has a slot and no glass rebate, the other has a rebate but no moulding (bevel).
The vertical components are all different from one another, except glazing bars are identical in pairs, but different in top/bottom sash.
The stiles are different top/bottom and in opposite handed pairs.
The mortices are 3 different sizes on each stile.
The bottom rail has a bevel underneath.

So you have to incorporate all this into the preparations, and work it around so that all the visible glass sizes are identical.

This is a typical little job. It’s only possible to do with a 100% rod, and with 100% marking up throughout - every mark in place, not one missed.
But once you’ve done all the marking it’s a doddle and you can’t go wrong (touch wood!)

It struck me that rod + marking up is a bit like scaffolding for a building job. Could look like a lot of trouble for a small job but once in place everything is so much easier to do and the job is done better and more speedily.

I’d better go and finish the bugger before mrs G catches me on the computer!

cheers
Jacob
PS I forgot to add - the originals were obviously made by a very competent woodworker - probably the cabinet maker who used to have a workshop next door many years ago. BUT he was a bit vague about rods - you can tell from the little odd details, such as glass sizes not being exactly the same, stiles planed off to different thicknesses to fit the frames (clearances should be in the rod, not retro adjusted), and other bits you'd hardly notice.

[dexteria]

Hi Jacob,

What joint do you use where the glazing bars cross over when its really fine glazing bar?

Cheers

Mark

[mrgrimsdale]

On a sash the vertical bars go right through - wedged M&T at top and bottom and mortice at the crossings. This is for strength as the pull on a sash is all up or down. Tother way round on a casement.
Then the horizontal bars are stub tenoned into the stiles, and stub tenoned/scribed at the crossing. There are more complicated joints shown in books but I've never met them in old windows and so never use them. You sometimes find the stub tenons joined with a 1/8" or 3'16" dowel but I think that's a bit pointless and just the old joiner's belt and braces caution.

cheers
Jacob