|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 7, 2009 16:33:14 GMT
I've just bought a smoother and two little block planes on ebay, all old and coffin shaped.
Itsa gamble though innit?
The smoother looked old, well hammered at both ends, but at the same time virtually unused. I found out why:
Sharpened up and had a go but shavings jammed in immediately. Impossible to use as the mouth was too tight. I reckon generations have been adjusting this plane and giving up on it straightaway. I've hacked out a bigger gap and it works quite well and has now produced it's first clean shavings since it was born!
The two little ones have different pitches and no cap irons. I assume they are used bevel up?
One sharpened very easily. In general I now see this as a sign that the steel has been softened by over heating on the grinder, and it will take a lot of sharpening to get back to good steel.
The other was very hard and unworn, but pitted with rust hence un-useable without a little bevel on the face side too, to get past the pits.
They both work but only on hardwoods; more of a scrape than a slice.
They both have very wide mouths. Is there an ideal width?
|
|
|
|
Post by lwilliams on Jan 8, 2009 15:59:15 GMT
"...The two little ones have different pitches and no cap irons. I assume they are used bevel up? ..."
I doubt it but it depends on the pitch. What pitches are they?
|
|
|
|
Post by colincott on Jan 8, 2009 16:59:10 GMT
One or both might have bodies for toothing planes if they or almost upright  |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 8, 2009 17:41:43 GMT
The small ones have 45 and 52 degree pitches. Look like a pair or part of a set. What would be most likely use? General cabinet making or more specialised? Big one 50. The little ones (6" long approx) don't seem to cut with bevel up - just a snatch and judder. Would a steeper bevel be better; more steel on the 'frog'? Or just wedge them tighter I suppose.   |
|
|
|
Post by colincott on Jan 8, 2009 18:04:01 GMT
Well they are not toothing planes
|
|
|
|
Post by lwilliams on Jan 8, 2009 19:40:28 GMT
I'm sure they're intended for bevel down work. My guess is that they're true finishing planes.
|
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on Jan 8, 2009 20:03:18 GMT
both of the ones i inherited, which i think date back to ww1 are bevel down, the smaller without a cap iron, the large with. i think mine were used at some time in the production of propellers, but since no one is now left to ask, can't be sure. the smaller one has a solid blade, the larger as i say, cap iron and slotted blade, which i guess may be younger. there always seems to be a dispute as to whether the term coffin has to do with their shape, or their original job. neither of mine are branded, and the mouth's are between 5/16th on the smaller and 7/16ths for the larger. paul  |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 8, 2009 22:46:31 GMT
'Coffin' - the shape. Gives a smaller footprint for following a bigger plane such as a jack, for smoothing rather than flattening. IMHO. I'll try bevel down. I've got a couple of wooden jacks and a jointer all working well but it does take some time - I think they have to settle in to perform consistently, specially after being neglected and worked over. I'm attracted to woodies mainly cos they are so cheap - you can buy a good one for less than the price of a replacement blade! Also the enthusiasts all say they are much easier to use in the long run, but they would say that wouldn't they.  I quite like using the jack and the jointer but my record 5 1/2 is the bees knees! |
|
|
|
Post by jake on Jan 8, 2009 23:19:33 GMT
I'm attracted to woodies mainly cos they are so cheap You love woodies because you have such a tight ass? :straight face: |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 8, 2009 23:23:34 GMT
I'm attracted to woodies mainly cos they are so cheap You love woodies because you have such a tight ass? :straight face: Yup. And because they were extensively used for hundreds of years to make spectacular woodwork - so they must be good! |
|
|
|
Post by jake on Jan 8, 2009 23:54:02 GMT
You love woodies because you have such a tight ass? :straight face: Yup. And because they were extensively used for hundreds of years to make spectacular woodwork - so they must be good! Fair enough, in that case I reckon you'd also like German woodies like this  asit looks as if you can get a really firm grip on the horn. |
|
|
|
Post by thebloke on Jan 9, 2009 13:43:48 GMT
I've got a continental style woodie as well...really excellent. Pearwood body and lignum vitiae base, blade pitched at about 48deg. Cost me £12 from Penny Farthing Tools - Rob
|
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 10, 2009 8:39:39 GMT
Well I've got the big one working nicely and I've just about convinced myself that it's the perfect plane to follow a 5 1/2 jack.
I've tried following with a 4 1/2 and a 4 but so far have never quite seen any point. Maybe my Record 5 1/2 planing is just too good to need a smoother!
|
|
|
|
Post by paulchapman on Jan 10, 2009 13:06:25 GMT
Maybe my Record 5 1/2 planing is just too good to need a smoother!  |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 10, 2009 13:26:43 GMT
Maybe my Record 5 1/2 planing is just too good to need a smoother! It's no joke! If I use a 4 1/2 or 4, both sharp and fettled, I then have to tidy up afterward with the 5 1/2 The 4 is worst - it seems to leave shiny tram lines which then need sanding off. Perhaps technique - I need to float it over with least pressure perhaps. The wooden smoother is better. Partly the coffin shape as it means there are no parallel edges to make impressions of their own. It takes off little thin wisps and improves (skightly) on the 5 1/2 |
|
|
|
Post by paulchapman on Jan 10, 2009 20:28:59 GMT
Must be something wrong with the way your #4 and #4 1/2 are set up. You should be able to use any size plane as a smoother IMHO. Perhaps it's those round bevels ;D Cheers Paul |
|
|
|
Post by paulchapman on Jan 10, 2009 21:24:53 GMT
The 4 is worst - it seems to leave shiny tram lines which then need sanding off. Thinking a bit more about your planes, Jacob, it sounds to me as though you need to flatten the sole of that #4 a bit more. Doesn't need to be flat all over - some concave bits here and there are OK as long as it's flat at the heel, toe and around the mouth. Sounds like you might have some convex spots along the edges  I flattened my old Record #4 on an 8" coarse DMT diamond stone. Went over the sole with a felt-tip pen so I could see where the high spots were and what I was taking off. It's really transformed the performance. It can also be helpful to go over the sole occasionally with some 0000 grade steel wool and Solvol Autosol to make it nice and slippery. Then wax it well while you are using it. Cheers Paul |
|
|
|
Post by engineerone on Jan 10, 2009 21:59:34 GMT
maybe there is something to be said for having the cutting bevel curved in two ways  in other words, the bottom of the blade should not be flat and square to the edges. paul |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 10, 2009 23:02:57 GMT
The 4 is worst - it seems to leave shiny tram lines which then need sanding off. Thinking a bit more about your planes, Jacob, it sounds to me as though you need to flatten the sole of that #4 a bit more. Doesn't need to be flat all over - some concave bits here and there are OK as long as it's flat at the heel, toe and around the mouth. Sounds like you might have some convex spots along the edges I flattened my old Record #4 on an 8" coarse DMT diamond stone. Went over the sole with a felt-tip pen so I could see where the high spots were and what I was taking off. It's really transformed the performance. It can also be helpful to go over the sole occasionally with some 0000 grade steel wool and Solvol Autosol to make it nice and slippery. Then wax it well while you are using it. Cheers Paul You could be right, I'll follow your advice. It's just that I'm on a personal learning curve with trying to do more hand tool stuff than I'm used to. |
|
|
|
Post by thebloke on Jan 13, 2009 14:44:08 GMT
Thinking a bit more about your planes, Jacob, it sounds to me as though you need to flatten the sole of that #4 a bit more. Doesn't need to be flat all over - some concave bits here and there are OK as long as it's flat at the heel, toe and around the mouth. Sounds like you might have some convex spots along the edges I flattened my old Record #4 on an 8" coarse DMT diamond stone. Went over the sole with a felt-tip pen so I could see where the high spots were and what I was taking off. It's really transformed the performance. It can also be helpful to go over the sole occasionally with some 0000 grade steel wool and Solvol Autosol to make it nice and slippery. Then wax it well while you are using it. Cheers Paul You could be right, I'll follow your advice. Good grief, gobsmacked don't come anywhere near describing it... ;D ;D Jacob'll be getting rid of those rounded bevels next and using a honing guide - Rob |
|
|
|
Post by paulchapman on Jan 13, 2009 14:59:35 GMT
Jacob'll be getting rid of those rounded bevels next and using a honing guide And pigs might fly........ ;D |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 13, 2009 15:20:42 GMT
You could be right, I'll follow your advice. Good grief, gobsmacked don't come anywhere near describing it... ;D ;D Jacob'll be getting rid of those rounded bevels next and using a honing guide - Rob Sorry, not likely to change my mind on convex bevel sharpening, mainly because it works brilliantly. ;D They all be at it sooner or later - mark my words! That reminds me - I've got to do a drawing showing the difference between rounding over and 'rounding under'. Watch this space. PS It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that quick and effective sharpening is possible with just an oil stone or two - otherwise you'd have to explain how so much brilliant woodwork was done in the old days, before primary, secondary, micro-bevels, tormeks, diamond stones, diamond paste, honing gauges etc and all the other modern bo****x! It's kinda obvious. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by paulchapman on Jan 13, 2009 16:57:10 GMT
That reminds me - I've got to do a drawing showing the difference between rounding over and 'rounding under'. Watch this space. Seriously, I'd be very interested to see that, Jacob. As I mentioned a long time ago in another thread about round bevels, I've bought several second-hand pig stickers and most of them have had rounded bevels. In tests I undertook, none of them worked effectively. The problem as I see it is that, while the edge may be very sharp, the shape of the rounded end means that you are trying to force a lump of metal through the wood, which sends the cut off line as well as causing a lot of resistance. Only when I sharpened them normally did they perform well. To be honest, your method makes absolutely no sense to me - but happy to be convinced otherwise Cheers Paul |
|
|
|
Post by colincott on Jan 13, 2009 18:04:34 GMT
PS It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that quick and effective sharpening is possible with just an oil stone or two - otherwise you'd have to explain how so much brilliant woodwork was done in the old days, before primary, secondary, micro-bevels, tormeks, diamond stones, diamond paste, honing gauges etc and all the other modern bo****x! It's kinda obvious. ;D Jacob This is something that I have wanted to say about this but never got a round to it. You say that it is all new about sharpening but you seem to not notice that there have been fines stones a round for a long time and welsh slate was used for some of them for a start but htere where also others used. The finer the stone the better the edge and it also helps if you are carving too |
|
|
|
Post by mrgrimsdale on Jan 13, 2009 18:42:40 GMT
PS It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that quick and effective sharpening is possible with just an oil stone or two - otherwise you'd have to explain how so much brilliant woodwork was done in the old days, before primary, secondary, micro-bevels, tormeks, diamond stones, diamond paste, honing gauges etc and all the other modern bo****x! It's kinda obvious. ;D Jacob This is something that I have wanted to say about this but never got a round to it. You say that it is all new about sharpening but you seem to not notice that there have been fines stones a round for a long time and welsh slate was used for some of them for a start but htere where also others used. The finer the stone the better the edge and it also helps if you are carving too Yes I know fine stones were used and some crafts will require extra sharp edge. What I'm saying is firstly: that whatever degree of stone you use, a relaxed convex bevel approach will be quicker and more effective than fiddling with jigs, aiming for several flat bevels, flattening stones, etc. secondly: that your average woodworker (such as me) will only really need one two-sided stone for all general purposes. |
|
