rounded bevel sharpening

[mrgrimsdale]

Somebody mentioned rounded-bevel free-hand sharpening in another thread. I wrote abut it in another place about a year ago - summary here: owdman.co.uk/joinery/sharpening.htm
General consensus was that I'm deranged.
So I thought I'd give a progress report.
Well I'm still doing it and nothing has changed except I tend to use white spirit instead of oil. It's very touchy feely - you have to feel the wire edge a lot, which means getting white spirit on your fingers which I suppose is bad for you.
Other than that it's brilliant. My chisels and planes have never been sharper and with very little effort expended. Haven't used a honing jig in a year, or used a grind wheel, nor likely to ever again, except perhaps for damaged tools - but that's metal work, not sharpening.
Getting a good edge is no prob, getting a super scary sharp edge takes slightly longer - using finest stone and oil.
Best thing I've ever done in terms of improving my hand woodwork.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Jacob , i'm not sure what your trying to say here I think your saying you round over the bevel and then put a honing edge on ? Is that right ?

[paulchapman]

Blimey jason, don't start him off on bloody honing..... ;D

[robo]

Round bevel - sorry I do not get it and I have read your piece Mr Grim a few times now - perhaps a sketch might help?

Why is a round bevel better than a straight one - surely it's the junction of two flat surfaces that is important? And the smoother and flatter these two surfaces the better. So if it is important to hone the bevel why not the face?

Look at the highly magnified images of honed chisels in Leonard Lee's book on Sharpening to see examples.

[mrgrimsdale]

Jacob , i'm not sure what your trying to say here I think your saying you round over the bevel and then put a honing edge on ? Is that right ?

No - you just hone in the usual way but dip the handle as you go, which eventually produces aounded bevel like this (big 2 1/2" chisel so you can see it OK)

robo said:

Why is a round bevel better than a straight one - surely it's the junction of two flat surfaces that is important? And the smoother and flatter these two surfaces the better. So if it is important to hone the bevel why not the face?

It's not better but it's a lot easier to get, and you back off the bevel at the same time all in one operation. You hone the face a touch just the same as all other systems. At the edge itself the angle is 30 deg, same as a flat bevel. Cuts the same.

cheers
Jacob

[paulchapman]

mrgrimsdale said:

It's not better

Understatement of the year, I reckon ;D

[afterglow]

Jacob,

Interesting reading, although probably not for everybody

If it works for you, that's great. I guess it's horses for courses - if you find the edges sharp enough for the type and quality of work you do, then obviously stick with it.

On the other hand, since woodworking tools from many years ago have been found with flat bevels dating back all those years, the history alone suggests some advantage to the flat approach.

My best guess is that it'll be impossible to get a proper polish on a rounded bevel unless you develop some quite complex jigs/gear to handle it, instead creating lots of little facets and a fairly rough finish that would not compare to a traditionally prepared, sharpened and honed edge.

Having said all of this, you do seem to enjoy creating a different viewpoint and then sticking to it, so go for it. There's room for all sorts in woodworking ;D

Cheers


Lee

[mrgrimsdale]

No you can have em as smooth and shiny as you like - remember it's entirely free hand. NB the face is flat. it's only the bevel on the back that's rounded. The actual cutting edge is the same, rounded or flat bevelled makes no difference to the edge.
Re sharpening in the past - first, it hardly gets a mention in any older books - this is because IMHO it was easy and taken for granted, second, what set me off on this was seeing a cabinet makers box of old tools with all rounded bevels and also deeply hollowed out stones.
IMHO all the emphasis on flattening and bevels came along with honing jigs - modern sharpening isn't about sharpening it's about sharpening with jigs or honing guides which is where all the problems and difficulties begin - not to mention the huge industry of courses, books abt sharpening, huge collections of kit , tormeks, glass paper etc.
It's quite nice being able to turn ones back on all that - and have very sharp chisels and plane blades, quickly, easily and cheaply ;D

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

as usual you are wrong jacob, modern sharpening is more about the fact that woodwork is no longer taught in either school, nor is hand work taught in most so called apprenticeships.

thus when people come back to woodwork, or start out, they have little idea of what is required, they have not been taught.

many people pretend that sharpening is difficult to allow them to sell jigs. however to learn to do it freehand, you have to have an idea as to what is right.

the other really important thing is as has been said elsewhere, there is a difference in joinery and cabinet making, and the need for being able to take finer cuts.

when i looked over my fathers chisels after he had died, i found that some of his wood ones had somewhat curved bevels, however his stone chisels were "normal " wedges. i do remember though that he often looked for a better way to sharpen, and had more than one kind of stone, including proper gronw up stone.

paul

[Roger]

Each to their own I guess. That's one big whack of a chisel you have there Jacob I can see your point as to it being easier and quicker for you and no doubt you use chisels quite regularly. I tend to think an awful lot however would be using smaller sizes and less frequently than you do perhaps.

I certainly agree on the 'industry' of sharpening that's almost an obsession with some, but once I've got my trusty Veritas set up - it rarely if ever needs altering and is quick. If I do ever sharpen freehand (maybe on-site), I'd probably tend to go your way, but more by me messing up than actually trying for it

It's interesting however. Who really cares about the bevel after all? - it's the edge and the cut that counts.

[mrgrimsdale]

engineerone said:

snip

the other really important thing is as has been said elsewhere, there is a difference in joinery and cabinet making, and the need for being able to take finer cuts.

Tother way round sometimes e.g. I have to mitre and/or scribe thin 14mm moulded glazing bars in softwood - which needs chisels as sharp as razors. There's less difference than you'd think, some things are much easier in hardwood

when i looked over my fathers chisels after he had died, i found that some of his wood ones had somewhat curved bevels, however his stone chisels were "normal " wedges.

I guess stone chisels have to be ground with a grindwheel, but some of the little lettering chisels could be done by hand imagine, but I wouldn't know

i do remember though that he often looked for a better way to sharpen, and had more than one kind of stone, including proper gronw up stone.

paul

Wos gronw stone? - sounds vaguely welsh ;D
I'd suggest to anyone interested that they should have a go at free hand sharpening - just relax a bit, forget about precise bevels and remember that it's actually dead easy and been done for years without any fancy kit. Grinling Gibbons, Hepplewhite, Chippendale, Stradivari didn't have tormeks ;D

cheers
Jacob

[Roger]

Now Jacob - if you can produce a Hepplewhite piece for me - chiselled or not, I'll feed you free beer for the rest of your life ;D ;D

[Dave S]

mrgrimsdale said:

No you can have em as smooth and shiny as you like - remember it's entirely free hand.

Which from my point of view is exactly the problem. Conventionally the trick is to keep the tool's angle to the stone constant as you move it on the stone. In your method, it's not necessary to keep it constant, but it is necessary to return to the same angle each time. Any less and you don't actually work the edge - any more and you steepen the angle of the cutting edge.

Both require skill which takes practice both to acquire and, I would suggest, to keep. I tried your method when you first wrote about it over the other side and I had no more luck with it than conventional freehand honing. In the end I reground the primary bevel and got the honing jig out again. For me, jigs and honing guides are where the problems and difficulties ended. Sharpening becomes easy and I can get on with cutting wood. When it comes to skills I'd like to learn, hand cutting dovetails comes considerably higher than freehand sharpening.

I guess those in the trade can get all the practice freehand sharpening they ever want, but then the 'huge industry of courses, books abt sharpening' etc seem to be aimed more at the hobby woodworker anyway, as far as I can see.

But what do I know? Having eschewed a tablesaw in favour of that other pseudo-tool, a saw & guiderail, I'm probably beyond hope anyway.

Dave

[mrgrimsdale]

daves said:

snip
Conventionally the trick is to keep the tool's angle to the stone constant as you move it on the stone. In your method, it's not necessary to keep it constant, but it is necessary to return to the same angle each time.

Yes - or close to the angle

Any less and you don't actually work the edge

That's OK - you are backing of the bevel making honing easier - same as grinding a primary 25 deg bevel but instead at an indeterminate angle less than 30 deg

- any more and you steepen the angle of the cutting edge.

and that's OK too - as long as you don't go too far - 30deg ish is fine

Both require skill which takes practice both to acquire and, I would suggest, to keep.

Yes but it's not that difficult really and easily aquired - about as difficult as sharpening a carving knife with a steel I'd say. Couple of hours max and you've got it. What is different is that you have to look/feel more than you would with a jig. Infact feel most - you can sharpen a chisel with your eyes closed

snip
But what do I know? Having eschewed a tablesaw in favour of that other pseudo-tool, a saw & guiderail, I'm probably beyond hope anyway.

Dave

And that's OK too ;D - esp if short of space, and it's mobile.
So everything is OK, no worries!

cheers
Jacob

[Sgian Dubh]

I think I'll just lob in this hoary old chestnut for fun. Slainte.

A Lesson in Sharpening.

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.

Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.

1. Those that can’t.

2. Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.

Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)

"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.

"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.

"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu’ may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yu’. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yu’ started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.

"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu’ cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."

I haven't.

[paulchapman]

That was great, Richard - I really enjoyed reading it

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

nice one richard, thing is you actually got shown how

too often now, people have to guess
which is why so many gadgets can get sold.

paul

[dom]

Doncha just love a good story, well told. First bloody class ;D

[jfc]

Jacob , i think what you are doing is what every site chippy does untill he needs to grind them back to a flat bevel again . My site chisels are a real mess but still sharp as all they get is a quick swipe and then back to work . My bench chisels on the other hand are lovely and flat because i have the time to keep them that way , not because of a grinder as i have only been using one for the last year or so but because i dont mind paying myself to take my time with them . If you spend time sharpening your tools on site people tend to get the hump , they dont mind a quick swipe ( i think this is why we have a honed edge) but when your getting paid by the hour you should turn up with sharp tools .

[modernist]

I think we are contributing to the idea of a "BLACK ART" here.

It isn't that difficult to get a decent edge providing you know how. If you don't then it's vitually impossible (hence the comments about lack of woodwork in school etc) but once you do then what's the problem?

Certainly it is possible to refine the procedure into an art form, and get a much better result by doing so. There is nothing wrong with that and it has it's place (not on site on Friday afternoon).

I often agree with Jacob but I am going to have to bale out on this one. I think most people will get an ever steepening bevel and if you were good enough to avoid that you would not have a problem in the first place.

Each to his own but lets all follow the basic rules

• Get the back flat
  
  Grind to 25 deg without burning
  
  Hone to 30 deg
  
  Remove the wire edge
  
  Strop on jeans
  
• 
  
• 
  

Off we go

You can get all that with a B & Q combination oilstone and a can of 3 in 1.

The fact I use a Veritas guide and couple of waterstones suits me better but is not obsessive - even when I add a micro bevel

[jfc]

Strop on jeans ? Whats wrong with the palm of yer hand ?

[dom]

Do you really want callouses on the palm of your hand.

I use a diamond stone.
My dusty Veritas guide bears testament to the freehand sharpening.
Given more time I would use a guide.
I think the difference here is hobbyist and trade.
Trade doesn't really care what the chisels look like as long as they're sharp.
Hobbyist is seeking perfection and so even their tools must look good.

[Alf]

You know you've been hanging around woodworking fora too long when you're singing out "I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’" two words into the introduction... ;D

I think Modernist is on the money - "round bevel sharpening" is no more removing the sharpening mystique than the "ruler trick", "side-to-side sharpening" or any other personal "this is the solution" mantra. The only difference is Jacob's cocked up and is failing to get paid for it...

As for the degree of angst over sharpening depending on whether you're getting paid for it or not, I'm not convinced. I think it probably has more to do with the amount of sharpening you need to do. Someone doing it day in, day out is going to get to the stage of "good enough" an awful lot quicker than someone who has time to worry about it - and it simply takes longer to get to the stage of having done enough sharpening to be quicker at it when you might only have a couple of hours in the w'shop once a week.

Cheers, Alf

[Sgian Dubh]

toobyefore said:

You know you've been hanging around woodworking fora too long when... Cheers, Alf

Or not long enough maybe Alf?

It's true, as others have said, I was taught a sharpening method by a grumpy old "bastit" who happened to be a very good and quick maker. He actually had a heart of gold underneath that curmudgeonly exterior. It took a while for me to notice it, but it was there.

What he taught me that tortuous afternoon I've pretty much stuck with ever since. It's simple, effective and there's no mystery. I just had to practice it until it became second nature, but after that 3 or 3-1/2 session I'd pretty much got it.

To this day I've no real idea what angles I use to get an edge. I just eyeball the job and away to go. Hell, some of my chisels have got four or five distinct facets where I've corrected as I'm grinding. There's nothing pristine, perfect or fancy about my chisel and plane bevels, but they are sharp.

I sometimes wish that all this 'mystery' was removed from the 'dark art' of sharpening. It's just a common or garden job best got through quickly. Whilst your sharpening you're not woodworking, and it's woodworking that pays the bills, so I've always had to spend the minimum time sharpening.

Of course there are different priorities for the hobby woodworker, but still, sharpening seems like such a boring chore. If every woodworker, professional or amateur, found a quick and simple way to sharpen and be done with it, wouldn't woodworking be much more enjoyable?

In a competition between endless, mind-numbingly boring bloody sharpening and enjoyably hacking up wood, I know which I'd rather be doing anyway, ha, ha. Slainte.

[mrspanton]

The bevvel shape Jacob as described is what is knoewn as a convex bevell, it is used extensively on some axe's and knive's, it has a long history lots of people use it, I have a snadvik axe I done that way it only needs rolling on a strop leather a few times during the day to keep it shaving sharp. I have a bunch of waterstones I know how to use them but rearly do now (too much fannying about keeping them flat etc too fragile), in fact I now keep the slurry and use it dry on wood board's as a strop/polish. Diamond card file's (market stall cheapo one's) and autosolvol paste is about all I need now, even to do hook carving tool's. Jacob is right there definatelly IS a mega sharpening gadget industry that thrives on (mainly) ignorance and lack of manual skill (hand/eye cordination)