rounded bevel sharpening

[Stree]

I have said before and I will say again, the best edge I ever got was on a customers stone doorstep and eased with spit, then honed on my Levi jeans.
And I have all sorts of stones and a Scheppach 2500, float glass and emery etc etc. and never measured an angle in my life. If its sharp its sharp, if not do it again until it is.....Theories are for books and notes, blades are for using. every sharpening is its own trial

[modernist]

mrspanton said:

Jacob is right there definatelly IS a mega sharpening gadget industry that thrives on (mainly) ignorance and lack of manual skill (hand/eye cordination)

You would certainly need the latter to maintain a 30 deg angle on a round bevel

[mrgrimsdale]

modernist said:

mrspanton said:

Jacob is right there definatelly IS a mega sharpening gadget industry that thrives on (mainly) ignorance and lack of manual skill (hand/eye cordination)

You would certainly need the latter to maintain a 30 deg angle on a round bevel

Not a problem. The angle is 30 (or near enough) at the edge i.e.a tangent to the convex bevel.
Praps that's what confuses people - they don't understand about tangents etc.

Jacob , i think what you are doing is what every site chippy does untill he needs to grind them back to a flat bevel again . My site chisels are a real mess but still sharp as all they get is a quick swipe and then back to work .

Yes the same. But if you do it a bit carefully i.e. not lifting above 30 deg, you don't need to regrind ever. Making the convex bevel does that bit for you. Flat bevels have no particular advantage.
I'll call it a convex bevel from now on, ta Mr Spanton.

personal "this is the solution" mantra. The only difference is Jacob's cocked up and is failing to get paid for it

Not a solution - more that there isn't really a problem.
True about the dosh, praps I should run courses ;D Trouble is it only takes half an hour or so to get the idea.
And as both Dom and Sgian Dubh both say - appearance isn't important.
But you can get a lovely smooth shiny convex bevel if you really want to!

cheers
Jacob

[Alf]

sgiandubh said:

toobyefore said:

You know you've been hanging around woodworking fora too long when... Cheers, Alf

Or not long enough maybe Alf?

I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to have said? I'm assuming you think I disagree? Dislike the story? No, no - I like the story. For folks who have sharp edges but are in danger of getting caught up in 30000 grit stones and polished backs to count their nose hairs in, I think it's a good reminder not to be so damn precious about this necessary chore. But for the anxious newbie who knows damn all and doesn't have a grumpy bastit about their person, it makes sharpening seem just as much a Dark Art as ever. You can moan and groan about the gurus and their infinitely complicated methods (and I do), but the fact is someone all on their own with no knowledgeable head to show them, can read the guru and know what to do to get a sharp edge. Sometimes I feel that those of you who were lucky enough to go through an apprenticeship like that have no idea just how bloody fortunate you are. If you've got nothing to go on but your own wits and whatever reading material you can lay your hands on, you need all the info you can get. I had to teach myself - and I'm a crap teacher and a worse pupil - and all the "just hone and go" in the world wouldn't have helped me know what benchmark of sharp I was trying to get. But once you know, and once you do enough of it for the mystery to be removed, and once you're in the middle of a project and really, really don't want to have to take 10 minutes out to work though X numbers of grits or whatever, well then the chances are you'll reach old bastit sharpening nirvana all by yourself anyway. I did.

Cheers, Alf

[modernist]

That is so true. It is not that long since I discovered long planes Before then I used a no 4 for everything. If I had "discovered" this a little earlier I would have done better work and a great deal easier.

[modernist]

mrgrimsdale said:

modernist said:

Not a problem. The angle is 30 (or near enough) at the edge i.e.a tangent to the convex bevel.
Praps that's what confuses people - they don't understand about tangents etc.

I don't think tangents is the issue. If you are sharpening on a stone conventionally it is tempting to increase the angle slightly to get and edge more quickly; hence the ever increasing angle. I think the rounded bevel idea makes this more likely.

The main benefit of a guide is that it avoids this pitfall and when it needs grinding then it needs grinding.

Having said that clearly it works for you and gives us something to argue about ;D ;D

Since you'r just up the road I might call in for a look if you've got a kettle

[mrgrimsdale]

toobyefore said:

snip
You can moan and groan about the gurus and their infinitely complicated methods (and I do), but the fact is someone all on their own with no knowledgeable head to show them, can read the guru and know what to do to get a sharp edge. Sometimes I feel that those of you who were lucky enough to go through an apprenticeship like that have no idea just how bloody fortunate you are.

My point is the gurus actually give out crap advice which is not a substitute for an apprenticeship, and actually makes sharpening more difficult. Worse than no advice at all!

I had to teach myself
snip
But once you know, and once you do enough of it for the mystery to be removed, and once you're in the middle of a project and really, really don't want to have to take 10 minutes out to work though X numbers of grits or whatever, well then the chances are you'll reach old bastit sharpening nirvana all by yourself anyway. I did.

Cheers, Alf

But there aren't any mysteries! I had to teach myself too but this was more about unlearning crazy sharpening methods and going back to basics.

Interesting this thread - less dismissive than 1st time around. Maybe it's catching on.
BTW thanks to Andy King for reminding me to wheel it all out again ;D ;D

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

modernist said:

That is so true. It is not that long since I discovered long planes Before then I used a no 4 for everything. If I had "discovered" this a little earlier I would have done better work and a great deal easier.

IMHO No 4 not good enough if one plane only, 5 1/2 better - jack of all planing.
Yes drop in, keep meaning to suggest it - Middleton b Wirks. 822170

cheers
Jacob

[Sgian Dubh]

toobyefore said:

I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to have said? I'm assuming you think I disagree?... Cheers, Alf

It was just a bit of verbal joshing Alf. No slight intended, if one was taken on your part.

I agree with you. I was lucky to be shown a working method within the first week of my training. It's got to be difficult if there's no-one there to show you.

I find it's exactly the same with computer programmes, for example. Half a day, or a few days with a good teacher and you've got the basics. Buggering about on your own trying to learn all the ins and outs of the programme is very frustrating.

It's taken me years to get good at MS Word. I could have got it in less than a week if someone who really knew the programme had taught me. Now I know more about how to use the capabilities of the programme than most professional administrators. And it's their bloody job to know how to use the programme, so who the hell didn't teach them how to use the programme properly? I can't recall how many times I've had to show an administrator how to fix the problems they're having using Word.

I also find it surprising how many fresh faced 19 year old students straight out of school with all the emphasis there is nowadays on IT training at school that haven't got a frickin' clue how to use such an essential primary programme. They don't even know how to use the spellchecker or even how to do the Page Set Up and organise the Formatting.

Do they all go through school and get qualifications in IT ignorance, or does ignorance come naturally do you think? Slainte.

[jake]

Here's a radical thought - I don't care how anyone else sharpens. I have a way that suits me, and that'll do for me _{and I won't mention except in small type that I use a guide and I find it quicker and easier to do that than to fuss around trying to learn accurate enough freehand sharpening when this isn't my trade, it's just a hobby}

[Alf]

sgiandubh said:

It was just a bit of verbal joshing Alf. No slight intended, if one was taken on your part.

None on mine - I was afraid there might be on yours! Ain't communication wunnerful. ;D

Hey Jake, I'm not going to try and convert you (no really, I'm not - honest), just curious - have you tried to freehand and been discouraged? Or been discouraged from trying at all? Same curiosity directed at anyone else who cares to answer. Just plain nosiness on my part.

Cheers, Alf

[dunbarhamlin]

I was afeared to try until grabbed by the scruff and shown the error of my ways - now I just use a guide for reshaping and occasional grinding.

Can't deny still being tempted by different media, though. Mostly use artificial waterstones, but got a couple of oilstones recently.

Cheers
Steve

[jake]

I've tried freehand a fair bit, and it isn't a disaster, I just find a guide makes it a quicker, easier, and nicely brainless task - for me.

[paulchapman]

toobyefore said:

Same curiosity directed at anyone else who cares to answer.

I've never really got on with free-hand honing, except for things like beading cutters where I hone the shaped part free-hand on MDF wheels. I use diamond stones (with oil), leather strop and a guide. Fast, repeatable and very sharp. Works for me and I no longer worry about it or what methods others use - each to their own

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

just re reading my latest copy of popular woodworking
feb 2008, no 167

adam cherubini who makes his living making 18th repros uses hand tools for almost everything, and is suggesting a small set of tools that would be useful to modern woodies.

all are 18th type, and he mentions using a wide chisel as a paring chisel, and then hesays he uses a 20-25 degree angle, but mentions having a convex rounded bevel.

i had never heard of it before so

paul

[paulchapman]

engineerone said:

adam cherubini who makes his living making 18th repros uses hand tools for almost everything............. hesays he uses a 20-25 degree angle, but mentions having a convex rounded bevel.

Yes, but Adam Cherubini tends to take things to extreems



Cheers ;D

Paul

[mrgrimsdale]

paulchapman said:

engineerone said:

adam cherubini who makes his living making 18th repros uses hand tools for almost everything............. hesays he uses a 20-25 degree angle, but mentions having a convex rounded bevel.

Yes, but Adam Cherubini tends to take things to extreems



Cheers ;D

Paul

Yes he does a bit
Mind you - that four poster bed in the workshop looks like a good idea. Cold days like today I could just pop under the covers with a cup of tea and the paper and get warmed up a bit. ;D Then I could wear pyjamas all day, just like Adam C

Here's the article Paul spotted:
www.popularwoodworking.com/articledisplay?id=14900
I hadn't seen it before.

cheers
Jacob

[paulchapman]

He has a blog, if you're interested www.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/

Cheers

Paul

[Alf]

Ah, Adam, bless him. I remember when he still didn't know it all... ;D Still, he's thought-provoking, and that's no bad thing. Unfortunately his website seems to have died the death, which is a shame because it had some interesting stuff connected to a 18thC project challenge he had going on WoodCentral a few years ago.

Anyway, thanks for indulging my curiosity, folks. I had this theory that people seem to suffer from the idea that once you try freehand sharpening somehow that means you can't use a jig when needed, but I'm no further forward with it. I suppose I could call it "blended sharpening" and become a guru too? Nah, life's too short. ;D

Cheers, Alf

Who just ordered some chisels she doesn't technically need, and is feeling really guilty in consequence. Plus they'll need sharpening...

[andy king]

From my own point of view, As a freehand sharpener since the day I was taught, I've stayed with what suits me, but I don't force my methods on others, simply demonstrate at shows and the like that the need for certain stones and methods is irrelevant, it's technique that counts.
However, my own method of sharpening, with the blade skewed to the stone can sometimes result in a bevel becoming out of square if you press too hard on the leading edge. You get a feel for how much pressure is needed to get the edge square with practice, but initially it can be easy to get the edges out of whack.
No problem with chisels or planes with lateral adjusters, but those planes that lack it, or have minimal movement such as shoulder planes need the iron to remain as square as possible and a honing guide allows this, so even though I don't use them, they still have a valid use in my mind, even for freehand honers.
just my 2p you understand

Andy

[Dave S]

I've been reading this thread and mulling it over since my last post and trying to formulate my thoughts - then along comes Alf and puts it all far more succinctly than I ever could!

As a novice I first was made to think that freehand sharpening was like a right of passage into the dark world of woodworking. So I struggled away on my own without much success at all. Then I discovered a honing guide at the bottom of the box of tools my Grandfather left to me. Chisel in the guide, out with the oilstone - 5 minutes later I had a sharper blade than I'd ever had before.

Serve me fine for quite a while, then I came across the 'it's not sharp unless you can count your nose hairs from 10 metres' brigade. The type who, as Jacob talked of in another thread, spend so much time worrying about sharpening it's a wonder they ever make anything. Had I the budget I might well have been tempted...

But the budget was limited, so when the oilstone lost an argument with the concrete floor in the middle of a project I tried wet 'n' dry stuck to a flat piece of mdf. I still use it to this day.

So I'm definitely with Jake on this one - maybe 20 seconds to get the blade set up in my Grandfather's old guide and a sharp edge every time. Minimal fuss and I concentrate on trying to improve my woodworking ability.

And to answer Alf's question, if it isn't obvious by now, I have tried to freehand and been discouraged.

Dave

[seanybaby]

I have read many ramblings of you lot and the other place about sharpening, but haven't comment that much.

I've only been woodworking 18 months and am still at college. I have had one 5-10min session on sharpening with a tutor and the rest of my knowledge is from the net and books. It' been interesting coming from knowing pretty much nothing, learning about oil, jap, diamond stones and also the many jigs involved.

It does not matter what you sharpen on, they are all the same.

For me freehand sharpening came quite easy. I get the sharpest edges at college of my class. I think this is all due to TECHNIQUE like andy says.

Personally i have been using waterstones for most of my blades. Also been using oil stones at college, and have experience with dry grinding with my turning tools.

I also have a chisel thats used for random opening of tins and general other un-woodworking-chiseling-like-stuff. This blade has morphed into a grimsdale blade with a rounded bevel and i must say it is about the same sharpness of my other blades.

To my mind, what counts when sharpening blades is your technique, however that only counts for the first 3mm of blade? Flat, rounded, who cares it does not matter?

Thought i would give my views.

One other thing - freehand sharpening a 2mm chisel, i find impossible and have been considering buying a jig for this.

Cheers
Sean

[jfc]

I heard that Dom has a honing guide for every chisel and leaves them clamped on for speedy sharpening . ;D

[jfc]

On a serious note , after buying some old I Sorbys off EBAY and keeping the 20* angle on them i find them much better than the modern chisels with a higher angle . If i ever get time i intend to put the lower angle on the draw full of blunt chisels i have .

[paulchapman]

jfc said:

I heard that Dom has a honing guide for every chisel and leaves them clamped on for speedy sharpening . ;D

No - Hudson does the honing........ ;D