FENSA

[jfc]

Just got my aplication form through to join FENSA and thought some of you would like to know what is needed to join .

£2Million public liabilty Insurance

£10Million Employers Insurance

Guarantee Protection Insurance

As well as your FENSA aplication fee and contracts to give your customers a 7 day cooling off period .

Now this Guarantee Protection is bothering me , if i make something and it is wrong then i put it right free of charge . If its not my fault then i put it right at a charge . And this seven day cooling off period Most of my customers want it made and fitted within seven bloody days

[sainty]

Are there any technical qualifications for the membership? Surely you must have to prove that you are fit for the job?

[jfc]

Yes the check your work at random , cant remember the exact amount as i switch off after 14 pages of bullshit but it was 2% of instalations max of 100 inspections at over £100 a time .

Just read more into this Gaurantee Insurance and you need to offer the customer the option to buy insurance to cover the work Now i need to be a free salesman for an Insurance company

[engineerone]

so the question is why do you feel the need to join?

as for the guarantee insurance, would think you could probably find a company that will pay you a commission for the sales
most insurers will if given the right tug.

i think the cooling off thing can be got round, since you do not offer credit terms DO YOU ;D

most of this seems to be to do with those companies who sell replacement windows etc, rather than the one man band, and as such are designed to stuff you, and grind you down.

since i would guess few fensa members actually make sashes, why join?

paul

[jfc]

Paul , i seem to be giving free loans to everyone south of the Thames at the moment The reason for joining is because any replacement window now has to be regestered with building control and with the new HIPS thing anything i fit WILL get flagged up as not passed by building control . The way around it is to tell the customer to call in bC but they wont . Then when they come to sell the house i get an irate phone call asking why my window is stopping them selling thier house . Of course this is nothing to do with them not telling BC about it .
Your right that they are set up to do with major companies that charge a fortune and it will put the costs of my windows up a hell of alot although FENSA say i can only charge £1.50 YES ONE POUND FIFTY PENCE to the customer for the FENSA charges . I guess you need to be ripping people off to start with to join eh .

[modernist]

Not being a member I have just had to ask the BI to pass mine (in my own house).

80 x 68 Columbian Pine sections, Roto tilt and turn gear, double face seals, 32mm triple glazed, argon filled, K glass.

Do you think they'll pass?

[jfc]

Not untill you drill holes in them for trickle vents ;D

[modernist]

Done that to vent the glazing cavity but I cannot bear the thought of ruining them for trickle vents for the rooms so I'm putting a heat recovery fan in the loft w trunking to each room.

Apparently that avoids the need for trickle vents.

[engineerone]

so how are fensa going to check how much you charge?

as usual with these quangos, they do not understand their impact on the small guy.

seems to me that you should be able to offer customers two prices, one if you become a member and register their windows, and one if they register the windows, and sign off on them within 14 days of paying you.

it comes down to getting the customer to pay for inspection i guess.

paul

[Keith]

I looked into joining FENSA a few years ago, they are geared completely toward big companies and it was totally uneconomic for me to join as I only make a handful of windows each year. If I now get a window job I contact the BCO and include the costs in with my estimate.

[engineerone]

interesting, talked to my mates kid tonight, he is back into making windows, and made some interesting comments.

as i understand it, if you are making sash windows, then the fensa standard means that the windows are deeper than original by about 2.5cm. so will this then cause a problem with grade 1 or 2 inspectors???

also i understand that if you use 4.20.4, on really small windows then you have major weight problems and getting sash weights etc.

so my thought is if you need some kind of certification, why not build the cost of a building inspector into the quote.
what you seem to be saying is that your customers want some kind of warrant that the windows have been done properly.
so surely something in writing from the bi is the way to go, otherwise i agree with keith, especially since i understand that member ship is about 2500 quid, plus a percentage of turnover.

you either have to make a bunch more windows, or put your prices up a lot.

seems a long way to go for a short improvement in less aggro.

fensa is definately for the big guys, and i do believe that some of the add ons will mean that you can no longer afford to make windows and sell them at a price which makes it profitable.

i also know of a couple of west london makers who have not in over two years been asked for certs, indeed one claims for more than 10 years no one has asked. mind you with some of his customers

paul

[jfc]

Grade 1 or 2 listed buildings are exempt from the building regs or should i say they can over rule building regs . 4 16 4k can be squeezed into a 44mm opener but 4 12 argon 4k is better but 10% more expensive . To get them running you need to use assisted lifts or spirals rather than sash weights .
My next job is to try and get a sash window with 37mm sashes converted to meet regs , with timber glazing bars ( no stick on stuff ) I keep telling them it doesnt have to comply as its just a repair but they wont have it .

[engineerone]

thanks it is all interesting even if i will never make any sashes, not least cause it shows that every thing in life is getting more and more regulated, and it seems only to raise money, not to improve things

good luck with that job,

paul

[Telos]

There's no point in using 4.20.4 anyway, as 4.16.4 is more efficient and has lower U values with all types of glass and gas fill combinations. Bigger isn't always better!

[paulchapman]

Interesting thread about using a FENSA-registered contractor on 'the other side' www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22449

Cheers

Paul

[Roger]

All this FENSA talk actually made me look up Defenestration

Lovely word and very applicable to some of those fellas who set up that load of rubbish in the first place ;D ;D

[thatsnotafestool]

jfc said:

...... Then when they come to sell the house i get an irate phone call asking why my window is stopping them selling thier house . Of course this is nothing to do with them not telling BC about it .
.

Bullshit. The only time that this is going to come up is when they have received and agreed an offer and the legal stuff re contract is going through. Standard questions on standard forms. If a potential buyer is going to let a missing Fensa certificate put them off buying then they weren't serious in the first place or just using it to try and knock the price down.

Why don't you get a document drawn up and get your customers to sign it....saying it is their responsibility to get BC involved.

[thatsnotafestool]

modernist said:

Done that to vent the glazing cavity but I cannot bear the thought of ruining them for trickle vents for the rooms so I'm putting a heat recovery fan in the loft w trunking to each room.

Apparently that avoids the need for trickle vents.

Trickle vents no longer mandatory

[tim]

Can someone clarify something for me please:

Window frames are purchased from a trade supplier eg Magnet and used to replace an existing window ie with the same opening size - and the glazing units comply with regs on safety and insulation etc.

Do fensa need to be involved ? And if so what are they actually doing?

Cheers

Tim

[lynx]

Trickle vents no longer mandatory

Is that so?

[jfc]

Can someone clarify something for me please:

Window frames are purchased from a trade supplier eg Magnet and used to replace an existing window ie with the same opening size - and the glazing units comply with regs on safety and insulation etc.

Do fensa need to be involved ? And if so what are they actually doing?

Cheers

Tim

No FENSA are not involved , you dont need to have anything to supply the windows but as soon as you fit them to the property it needs a building notice that it complies with the regs . FENSA are just a group that people join so they can self certify rather than having to call the building inspector to come and check .

[lynx]

How do you know that the windows you are making will then pass the BI inspection?

[jfc]

Because i know what the building regulations are

[engineerone]

yes, but does the bi???

paul

[pitbull]

It all seems nice thes associations that make the public and trade think you are repectable. But my personal opinion is they ain't worth the money. Not even large companies such as NHBC. I've pondered over a few times but not for me.