Timbers for making windows

[opener]

Modernist's thread about making windows has got me thinking about what timbers
people use for them.

I always used to use European redwood and then had them treated with vac-vac for
preservation. When they brought in water-based preservative which raised the grain I
went over to hardwoods and was glad to be rid of all the knots, shakes, resin pockets
etc and having to take them away to be treated.

Now I mostly use Idigbo which has its own drawbacks, a bit soft, smoky to mortice,
ambrosia beetle etc etc, but still better than softwood.

I occasionally use Iroko and Oak when the job can afford it and have no problems
there.

My next job is to be using Douglas Fir and seeing Modernists photos has reminded me
of the downside of that timber, shakes and splinters mainly, a bit of chip bruising and
only moderately durable - would I have to get the windows treated at the end?

I'd be glad to hear other peoples comments and learn what they use and why.

Cheers
Malcolm

[jfc]

Redwood here but not the stock stuff . Meranti if they want hardwood at a low price and Sapele if the price allows it but normally it doesnt . I would love to make oak windows all the time but it aint gonna happen Tulip was suggested to me today , anyone have any thoughts on Tulip ?

[Scrit]

jfc said:

....anyone have any thoughts on Tulip ?

Yes. It's complete crap. Also sold under the names American whitewood, tulip poplar, etc it's a poplar, so very light in weight and quite strong. Used to do painted face frames in kitchens or furniture/chair components (where it is normally hidden under some opaque stain). I find it sands out very woolly and can be prone to breaking out when rebating/profiling with small diameter tools (e.g. router cutters). It's soft and bruises a bit too easily for my liking, but it is cheap as chips and looks OK when painted. I've been told that you need to treat it with preservative for exterior use, although I may be mistaken.

Scrit

[jasonb]

As Scrit says Tulip is classed as a perishable hardwood so not something really suited for outsde use.

Jason

[modernist]

opener said:

My next job is to be using Douglas Fir and seeing Modernists photos has reminded me
of the downside of that timber, shakes and splinters mainly, a bit of chip bruising and
only moderately durable - would I have to get the windows treated at the end?

I'm not so sure about the "moderately durable". there are thousands of old windows in both Columbian/Oregon Pine/Douglas Fir preserved by the resin content which, although less than Pitch Pine is still very significant. I certainly wouldn't see the need for vac preserving. After all there must be a reason why so many public buildings have CP joinery (probably that they are not paying for them with their own money ;D)

The shakes are a problem and boil down to extra cost or luck and careful planning. It can be crumbly and splinters easily but a course with Mr Charlesworth would do no harm there

The chip bruising has always been a problem but I do think it is solvable by fine tuning of the blades and high extraction. Strangely I find it comes and goes so maybe it is related to differences in individual pieces of timber. Certainly it seems worse on faces parallel to the grain.

Brian

[pitbull]

I go with what the clients want, as they are normally Architects. But mainly U/S European Redwood. If I want 4" I buy 9 or 10" allowing me to rip the centre splits out and convert into shavings. You can buy engineered redwood like nordans windows where there are very few knots, if any.
I don't like Vac Vac , fair enough if its rafters or the like. If treated is asked for I send the timber down too the sawmill to be pressure treated. Tanalith E
As for hardwoods, if it's my decision I won't touch things like Meranti. Up here it is now known as Far Eastern Red Hardwood. I believe there less durable than Redwood. It just sounds good that there hardwood windows. You may aswell make them out of Tulip. I Use home grown locally sourced Oak and Ash

[jfc]

When we look at timber used in existing building Doug Fir was used alot for Joinery , maybe because it was the timber they had at the time like we now have redwood ( unspecified ) But it has lasted the time test so Doug Fir gets my vote as a good timber for external Joinery ...... and it smells nice ;D

Timbmet are now doing a laminated timber for windows and doors that is supposed to be alot more stable so maybe this is the way to go ?But and there is always a but ..... If you tell the customer it's laminated they say they want solid wood

[pitbull]

Whats the one that is pickled.

[jfc]

Please dont talk about my liver on an open forum ;D

[wadkin1]

Hi

First post , saw the thread and just though i would add my pennies worth.

I have both made and fitted other manufactures replacement box sash's in the past.

Mumford's being one, they switched to larch for the main of the box construction long ago for its durability over vac treated redwood/deal. On occasion these days i pull out treated frames that have only been in 15 years which are already on the turn.

It is hard to obtain but their are a couple of suppliers bring in some really good material from Siberia. Native larch i have not found to be of the same quality due to the fact that the Siberian is so slow to grow.

Andy

[gazza]

Hi Andy (wadkin 1) welcome to the forum ;D
Cheers,
Gazza.

[jfc]

Welcome to the forum Andy

[wadkin1]

Thanks for the welcome

Just discovered you tonight, i look forward to contributing to what appears a very good knowledge base for people.

Andy

[jonnyd]

Hi just signed up

we generally use redwood or idigbo for paint jobs and european oak or sapele for hardwood jobs. Just been using some laminated FSC european oak which has gone smoothly.

Jon

[gazza]

Hello Jon,
Welcome to you too ;D
Cheers,
Gazza.

[jfc]

laminated FSC european oak which has gone smoothly.

Is that the stuff Timbmet are selling ? Three timbers to make up a section . Sounds good if it's a stable as they say but will customers go for it ? I know if i told my customers i was using laminated timber they would say they want solid timber

P.S welcome to the forum Jon

[pitbull]

when it comes to sapele and the likes. whats the point in using it. It has to be treated ie painted, So why not just used a good quality softwood. Is it because customers minds are put at ease when they hear hardwood.
When I discuss timber with clients I compare oak with UPVC instaed of wiping down the UPVC to clean it. It will take just as long to wipe down the oak with an oiled cloth. OK some oils will take 3 or 4 days to dry.
But when it comes to it its only the material cost that is more expensive. the labour stays the same.

[jonnyd]

I get my timber mostly from Fitchett and Woolacott in Nottingham which is part of Brooks Bros Timber. I know they buy it in so it all probably comes from the same place. The sections are mainly an Inch thick so 4 laminations for standard frame section and 3 for sash section. You cant really tell that it is laminated as glue joins are on the inside and colour matching is pretty good. No problems with stabilty so far and I've had offcut in a bucket of water for a month or so and has shown no signs of delaminating. I agree about the sapele its mostly down to customers insisting on a hardwood and cant afford the oak that we end up using it.

Jon

thanks for the welcomes

[dexteria]

I had wondered about lusing larch on windows. It was (slowly making a comeback I'm told) traditionally used to clad buildings up here (vertical lap). Its left untreated and weathers to silvery grey. Its not suitable for use untreated in build up areas such as city centres as it stains black and looks awfull. The Apex hotel in Dundee is a good example of this.

Mark

[jfc]

Larch is good for boats so i'm told so windows maybe ....

[pitbull]

dexteria said:

I had wondered about lusing larch on windows. It was (slowly making a comeback I'm told) traditionally used to clad buildings up here (vertical lap). Its left untreated and weathers to silvery grey. Its not suitable for use untreated in build up areas such as city centres as it stains black and looks awfull. The Apex hotel in Dundee is a good example of this.

Mark

That blackning is due to the fixings thay have used. The same would happen if you used just normal paslode brads for cedar. which happened in St Andrews at the uni. So they had to be punched through and re nailed with st steel brads. 6 buildings had to be done

[lynx]

We have been looking at using Larch for some windows coming up. Not much difference in price from Redwood but it does seem more durable. Good to know about the blackening effect

[mrgrimsdale]

Larch is tough and heavy. Praps too good for painted joinery. I once turned some into table legs - quite a good shiny self finish. Keep intending to have another go wih larch for furniture.
Joinery I always use redwood - 'unsorted' swedish. It's very durable and lasts forever if properly fitted and maintained. Main detail of proper fitting is to leave all backs and out-of-sight bits completely unpainted, and to maintain an air gap esp at the cill - with bits of packing, slate etc. The gap is closed with minimum amount of mastic, for draughtproofing.
This allows wood to 'breathe' i.e. it might get wet but it also has the chance to dry out again.
Essential maintenance is to clean properly and check or paint defects every year or so the first 5, and to fix them immediately.
All the failures I've ever had are down to poor paint maintenance. I can always blame the decorator!

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Jacob , i can see what you are saying and most of the older windows i replace have been left bare on the backs but i am replacing them because they are rotten . I did my apprenteship with a dry rot firm and every bit of timber replaced was primed at the very least . I'm not saying this was right it was what i was told to do . Maybe it was the fact that they had lead paint in those days that didnt let the timber breath where as now we have paints that do let the timber breath .

[mrgrimsdale]

All paints ancient or modern are "microporous" and "breathe". Modern paint makers go on about it but it's just advertising.
The worst windows I've ever taken out were often not very old - but had cills painted underneath, and set in dense mortar. They'd be literally water-logged - you'd pull out a wet saw and they'd drip from the saw cut.
On the other hand I've taken out 150 year old windows - which would still have been in good order if they had been painted just once or twice in the preceding 50 years.

cheers
Jacob