Timbers for making windows

[dexteria]

Agree about the fixings but the Apex has huge areas of muckiness. An architect that I use told me that this was due to traffiec pollution etc. I'd no reason to doubt this. Are stainelss steel fixings ok as with oak?

Cheers

[pitbull]

dexteria said:

Agree about the fixings but the Apex has huge areas of muckiness. An architect that I use told me that this was due to traffiec pollution etc. I'd no reason to doubt this. Are stainelss steel fixings ok as with oak?

Cheers

St Steel for oak yes, or brass. In my Opinion, The Apex went black too quick for polution. When it started you could see where the zinc was being washed down the wood. Its supprising how many of the big contractors don't have a clue about construction as they are just out of Uni. Alot of them are learning on the job. And as far as architects, well they ain't how they used to be. None like to make any decisions. But this is a whole new subject. ;D

[opener]

Thanks for all the replies, there is obviously no clear favourite and it's mostly horses for courses. I hoped I might hear about the perfect timber but I don't think it exists.

For run of the mill jobs I'm fairly happy with Idigbo although on my current job I've had some rather woolly 1" stuff which didn't mould very well.


Andy - The Siberian larch sounds good if its available, a friend also suggested Kara Sea redwood which is also rather diffucult to find but apparently of good quality. I shall investigate.

Jason - I have emailed Timbmet for details of their engineered sections and will post the reply if I can.

Pitbull - I like your oak v Upvc argument, I may borrow that in the future

Cheers
Malcolm

[jfc]

They just send you three bits of wood glued together , i chucked mine on the fire ;D I love free heat , might ask for more samples ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

'Kara Sea' is slightly obsolete term for 'Russian' redwood, sometimes 'Siberian' or 'Archangel' used. Further north the better for redwood - finer grain with slower growth. Is all Scots Pine BTW, not mixed species like whitewood. Nowadays Swedish is generally seen as the best. I get mine from Hanrahans. A big softwood importer is best, rather than a general timber merchant.
Buy by grade - 'unsorted' is best. Don't buy from a yard which lets you sort through a pile and choose - it will already be de-graded by having been sorted by the previous purchaser, unless you are lucky. Also very time consuming unless you can get several chaps and a fork lift to help.
I wouldn't bother with hardwoods for external joinery - if it isn't well maintained it can rot faster than redwood. I get a lot of old windows with oak sills - once the paint is gone the oak goes very fast - sometimes spectacularly; the redwood pulley stiles in perfect nick but the oak sill turned to dust

cheers
Jacob
Jacob

[wadkin1]

Hi

The best suppliers i have found to date for a good selection of softwoods including kd Siberian larch is Capricorn timber in the midlands.

Andy

[mrgrimsdale]

Capricorn looks good except for the inevitable problem; the larger the timber variety range the smaller the stock size range.
Whereas WJ handrahan do only redwood and whitewood (I think), in a huge range of sizes and grades including wide range of U/S.
Timber merchants all seem to be very different from one another so it's worth asking about - and visiting or getting rep to visit.

cheers
Jacob

[pitbull]

WJ handrahan now that name rings a bell, but don't regonise the livery. Mind you it has been a few years since I was down in Leicester.
When I worked in Leicester I used to use www.harlow-bros.co.uk/timber/index.htm They were good for U/S, But generally I think once you have sourced a supplier that understands your needs then it can make things alot better. I had one up here that tried to tell me he had been in the wood trade for over 20 yrs, and there was no such thing as U/S. Then proceeded to deliver a couple of cube of knotty timber. Which I wanted clear grade for 6" facings. I told him it wasn't U/S he then said it was but it was used for Knotty furniture and Doors. I don't use them.

[opener]

Hi Jacob
Very interested in all your comments on unsorted redwood but I'm a bit puzzled that you call it very durable. If so why is it generally reckoned to need preservative treatment? or are you just referring to the quality you buy from Handrahans?
Cheers
Malcolm

[pitbull]

When it comes to durability in Redwood its more an impact issue.
Compare it with say Cedar, which is durable as it doesn't need preservatives but it is soft structurally for doors and windows.
The majority of timbers will need treating, The same as Sapele. why people make doors and windows out of that is more than likely because of the statement that its a hardwood, and not for its durability.

[jfc]

I think Sapele is more durable because it is less prone to rot , wet rot , woodworm . I'm only going on what i have seen and replaced over 15 years so it's not set in stone . I also dont recall taking anything out that has been primed on the back . I'm not saying Jacobs theory is wrong but i need more than it's just the paint companies trying to sell to convince me .

[mrgrimsdale]

opener said:

Hi Jacob
Very interested in all your comments on unsorted redwood but I'm a bit puzzled that you call it very durable. If so why is it generally reckoned to need preservative treatment? or are you just referring to the quality you buy from Handrahans?
Cheers
Malcolm

Needs preservatives to mitigate against bad design, fitting and maintenance compared to trad redwood joinery which lasts 100+ years without preservatives. Lead paint was a bonus - helps reduce maintenance.
Also redwood holds paint well - a painted softwood item is likely to last longer than a painted hardwood item, in the right circumstances.

cheers
Jacob

[pitbull]

this is where I agree with Jacob.

the 10 yr old

And the new. I just hope they treated it.

[jfc]

Ahhh but that a modern design window not a trad window . The cill looks flat so water can sit on it and there is no airflow below the fake opener ? to dry out any driving rain that may get in . You can see where the rot has started because of the cill problem and gone up the frame .

[pitbull]

recon with the way the rain must have been hitting it and those mitred comb joints they use.
But in the end people don't expect "hardwood" to be like that, I ain't saying redwood would stand up any better, just that hardwood for hardwoods sake I don't agree with. This Far Eastern red hardwood can plane up sometimes pretty furry.
The same goes for fire doorsets, just because its in a hardwood frame it doesn't mean its density is correct for a fire rating. But you still hear it. Its 1hr because its a hardwood frame.

[jfc]

Thats because you have p**cks training p**cks to be p**cks rather than people that know what they are doing training joiners to be joiners . I'm not saying i know best and Jacobs theory is very interesting for me but we do have the p**cks that have read a few books telling customers how it has to be and if it's not like that then the joinery is rubbish Even if a modern construction lasts ten years and a trad one last a hundred years

[wadkin1]

p**cks training p**cks i like that one, in the main i could not sum it up any better.

All i know is that in the past 20 years or so in the main if i pull out softwood or hardwood sills, the unsorted?? redwood ones are always the worse for wear, even the sapele? ones fair better.

Many of the oldest windows i have taken out in the main have either oak or teak sills, the guys making them all those years ago knew that redwood rots period, painted on the back or not. If the piece in question is sheltered from the elements or the sun more to the point it is going to last a long time but given high exposure redwood is a waste of time good or bad design detail.

It seems to heated up this debate.
Andy

[modernist]

I know its a shorter time span than some but I used Douglas Fir 30 years ago for some "stormproof" windows , finished in Sadolin. The cills are still fine but the outer surface has degraded (south facing) and the joints have opened up in the outer section. I read earlier that stormproof was a bad design for this reason.

My current batch of Euro windows overcomes both problems by having screwed on alloy cills and bottom rails so the main areas for rot are elimenated.

Brian

PS Jacob - you give me a link for Handrahans.

[mrgrimsdale]

WJ Handrahans is at Huthwaite. Don't seem to have a web site. They deliver Matlock area free once per week. Don't know if there's a minimum order size, my orders usually £100 to £500, sometimes smaller. They like cash or debit card payment up front. Charge for credit card. Friendly rep called Martin is fount of information.
They don't cut anything, but sometimes they do if it suits them, and they give you stuff by grade off the pile unselected.
They let you pick up but you have to order it beforehand. If what you get is obviously worse than the grade should be, they'll give a discount or take stuff back.

If you have a prob I'll be making another order later this year - you could tag your's on too if you want.

cheers
Jacob

[modernist]

Just down the road then - I might take you up on that - thanks. I am using Fitchett and Woolacott for the Columbian and the Cherry I am using at the moment and they are fine. I got fed up with Timbmet on several counts.

Re a comment above Siberian and Archangel surely the colder and slower the growth the better.

What is clear "Velux" type redwood called round here. No 1 or 2 clear and better? or something else. It must be more specific than unsorted in which you would presumably get some knots.

I fancy using some Redwood to give me break from the splinters and difficult grain of the Columbian.

Brian

[mrgrimsdale]

I think "No 1 or 2 clear" are Canadian grades - different system from the N european, which in turn varies nationally e.g. russian 4ths is similar to swedish 5th. Swedes don't do 4th, is all "unsorted" above 5th. Could be wrong though, it's all a bit confusing which is why you need a good timber merchant who knows what's what and can tell you what you really need.

cheers
Jacob