Window sections

[cadas]

Is there a ready source of section designs?

The set I have ( they came with the cutters) are a bit out of date and I'm constantly having to modify to cope with the larger glazing thickness. Inevitably, I get the sums wrong somewhere.

I know I can start again, but it would be quicker to have something to start from.

[jfc]

I had these made by NLS to cope with D/G 15mm x 32 mm rebate in one and a chamfer to look a bit like putty , bead from the inside .

[pitbull]

Up here your section size wants to be a minimum of 55mm. the glazing is 4;16;4 which will allow you to have an approx 12-15mm glazing beads / rebates depending on if you are dry glazing or using gaskets.
But it will all depend on the window type.

[jfc]

Can you not use 4 , 12 argon gas , 4 k there ?

[pitbull]

our U values are more stringent up here than in england and wales. I believe by 10%. And that is using argon glass with Low E glass

[pitbull]

jfc said:

Can you not use 4 , 12 argon gas , 4 k there ?

I remember when i was living in Leicester I thought it was a big jump from 4;6;4 to 10 or 12 ;D

[jfc]

Hmmmm , my cutter is 55mm but if i need to go bigger on the section i use 50 mm not 55 mm . Every mm matters when you are trying to fit new regs into old buildings as you probably well know . Soon we will need to make 100 x 50 Architraves for sash windows just to allow for the glass

[mrgrimsdale]

cadas said:

Is there a ready source of section designs?

The set I have ( they came with the cutters) are a bit out of date and I'm constantly having to modify to cope with the larger glazing thickness. Inevitably, I get the sums wrong somewhere.

I know I can start again, but it would be quicker to have something to start from.

The only standard AFAIK is EJMA ; "English Joinery Manufacturers Association". You should be able to track down a spec somewhere, probably in a catalogue e.g some drawings here at bottom of page: www.clivewalkertimber.co.uk/profiles.htm
Most manufacturers use their own designs, or variations of EJMA sections

cheers
Jacob

[cadas]

I think I've got to sit down with the set of cutters I have and see what I have to add to them to make the new sections.

I can't bring myself to start again with new cutters as this set cost several thousand two years ago but they only go up to 54mm wide frames.

4-16-4 is the minimum here

[mrgrimsdale]

Can you get your monies worth from several £Ks worth of cutters in two years? Big turnover, or if not then praps the wrong kit for a small operation. Would cheaper cutters and multiple passes make more sense?
I don't do any modern stuff - but if I did it'd be with my cheapo home made cutters. Could involve a lot of setting up, and multiple passes on complicated profiles, but very adaptable and cost bugger all.

cheers
Jacob

[jfc]

Cadas , are you talking about the set to make storm proof sashes . The set makes the frame sections aswell as the window sections ?

[cadas]

The cutter sets I have are made up of about 25-28 different cutters in different stack sets. They deal with both the frame and the sashes and incorporate the matching profile cutters for the slot jointed corners.

To make them wider I need to buy 'spacer' cutters to expand the section size, but it will take some thinking about to make the changes consistent across the range.

JFC, one of the sets I use cuts a section similar to your photo, but mine cuts both beads on the section at the same time, but, it cuts one bead 2mm higher so than it can be cut off and then is the same height, saves having to set up and cut beads separately and your are never short.

Jacob, when I have runs of windows, all in oak, usually between 8-12 windows per run plus doors and french windows, several thousand euros for a set is not a major cost. That said, I had hoped to get more than two years out of the set but a combination of inexperience in buying such a set and the recognition that I have to be able to batch produce window sections quickly to meet demand means that I need to produce mouldings and end joints in a single pass.

Fortunately I bought a spindle moulder and tenon rig from a window maker closing down so it has the power (9kw) to cut serious stuff in one pass. One of the cutter combinations has three 320mm dia cutters plus two smaller groovers in one set.

Scary as ****

[jfc]

Axminster do a set like that . I pointed out the price of around 3K a few weeks ago

[cadas]

For a full set for production runs, 3k is not expensive, providing it is quick to set up.

Biggest problem I have found with some smaller sets is that certain joints share cutters with other joint sets. So, some cutters wear out quicker than others, plus there is the time taken to switch between sets.

If you think back on the time it has taken to custom make (design, find and order) your profile cutters and then put your time cost on these, the savings soon fall.

I approached a professional tool supplier when I set up this shop and enquired about a window making set. He ended up supplying a second hand set from a company closing down, I paid 3k for it but this was about 50% of new plus I got a box of samples to assist setup.

Every joint has its own set, plus every joint has its own set of shims. The time it saves to make each window is well worth it.

[jfc]

So just how quick can you make ,say , ten windows 2m tall x 1.5 wide with two bottom openers and two top openers with this kit ?

[cadas]

Three days, but that includes taking all the timber down from waney edge oak boarding.

Day timber prep to planed blanks, day to machine sections, day for joints and assembly. Panels add half a day

[jfc]

Thats quick ! Is there no cleaning up to do ? I.E cutting off horns or sanding ?

[cadas]

Sanding yes, but previously I had an apprentice, now I have machine sander.

Horns no, the sections are cut to length (plus or minus the manufacturers stated tolerance) so when they go through the machine they are right. I don't even dry fit anymore.

All sections are cut to length prior to jointing, then jointed then glued.

You have to remember with this type of cutter set, there is a set for each operation, one set cuts the frame (ie rebates + both beads+weather strip), second cutter removes the spare bead, the third set cuts one side of the slot joint, the fourth set cuts the other, then you start again for the sash with another four sets, then I have the hinge and lock jigs, all precut prior to assembly.

[jfc]

Well the Axminster commercial sales team is on 0845 070 78 70 and it looks like they sell the same set up ...... I do have to wonder why you have to pay to ring a 0845 number when ringing to spend thousands but get a free call to spend a couple of quid
I'm not a fan of the storm proof sashes myself as i think they have a short life span compared to trad joinery but as people change the windows as much as they change the carpets nowadays maybe this is the way to go .