Plumbing mishap

[TonyW]

A few days ago decided that I had had enough of creaking flooring in upstairs bedrooms. As the first bedroom was due to be re decorated and have new carpet I took the opportunity to fix the chipboard flooring using Spax screws leaving the existing nails in place.

In spite of using one of these


This happened (apparent only today). I had managed to screw the pipe securely to the joist. The black tape is my temporary repair. It was the only thing I could find at Homebase at just after 5pm

This could have layed undiscovered for ages - the leak actually ran between wall cavity

At the end of the day this accident was due to my carelessness in not checking more thoroughly, however isn't cutting a notch to run pipes and cables bad practice - surely it weakens the joist and runs the risk of pipe being punctured

I am sure that I used the "Tracker" over all intended screw areas. It should have identified the pipes particularly as they actually lie slightly above the joists (the chipboard floor must have pushed them down.

I think I should replace the tracker with something a little better to identify wiring and pipework as I am intending to do the whole upstairs area. Anyone have any suggestions (without breaking the bank)?


Cheers
Tony

[evergreen]

Tony

What a bummer! I recall that Which? tested DIY-type detectors a few years ago and found them all to be pretty useless at that time.

No doubt other forum members will be able to recommend something a bit better. But whatever you get in future, I'd test it with a sample of your specific flooring and your pipework and take it straight back if it doesn't work perfectly.

Regards.

[sainty]

I think that the general consensus is that they are all a bit dodgey as evergreen says.

The only way to be 100% is to have a look! You can make reasonable guesses thinking about pipe runs and socket locations. Like I say though, if you aren't sure have a look. It's quite normal to notch the joists and there are guidelines, here for example but you cant be sure that these have been followed.

cheers

Sainty

[engineerone]

made the same mistake using a nail gun a couple of years ago to put false floor down for carpeting. 12mm brads seemed too weak
to hold it up.

you are right though some plumbers really do not care about the long term consequences of their laziness. pipes should go through rafters or be supported about 2inches below the floor, but no one seems to do it!!

well done for checking

paul

[jake]

You can't really do anything other than notch with copper, obviously. They should run down the middle of a board, so off the nail lines. Never nail or screw except within an inch of the edge of the board!

[tigerturnings]

I have Axminster's "Lumber Wizard Metal Detector" (code: 354001 at £62.17) mainly to give me a better chance of not killing another saw blade when using reclaimed timber.

So far I've tested it down to a single leg of a staple embedded in the surface of a plank, and it found that happily enough. Big expanses of steel/iron such as machine tables, vices are detected at about 6" through air.

I've not yet tried it on copper - I'll happily try it out on Sunday if you like. The bigger search area is a boon for scanning planks quickly, but in your use it might be a nuisance triggering on existing nails?

Incidentally I think by its appearance it's essentially the same device recently issued to schools (or was it police?) to try and detect/reduce knife carrying.

TT

[jfc]

Electricians dont notch , they drill in the middle of the joist where there is less structual damage , Plumbers dont have that luxury so have to notch the joist at the most structual point . This is why they dont notch any further than needed ( yeah right ) I had a job where i had to get rid of the squeaky boards once and i told them i will have to lift every board within arms reach to make sure there was no services below them . I didnt allow for the alarm bloke running the cable under the old carpet i cut up with a stanley knife

[pitbull]

depending on the joist centres and the area the plumber has to work, there is enough flex in copper piping to bore a hole 2" below the top edge and thread them through, as it is only the initial hole thats the problem. You drill the initial hole slightly bigger than the rest and at a slight angle to aid in threading the pipe. start at the centre of the room and work there way out, so in the centre you have a join.

[tigerturnings]

Well I'm in the shed now, and have tried a quick and simple test: I took some grotty old 28mm copper pipe and the Axminster Wizard detected it at maybe 3" through air (didn't measure exactly 'cos I haven't got a plastic ruler down here!)

Then put a bit of 1 3/4" thick oak on top of the pipe, and some 5/8" contiboard on top of that, the Wizard beeps just a small distance off the surface of the contiboard.

This Wizard has a fine tuning adjuster, which I didn't adjust today (may have done it when I first got it but not since). I discovered that for my copper pipe (and small ferrous tacks etc) it stops its beep after a couple of seconds, but left on cast iron tables, it will beep for at least 10 seconds (as long as I could stand the noise!).

Any specific questions, I'd be happy to answer of course

Cheers

TT

[TonyW]

Thanks to all for your comments and tips. Just had the plumber leave after completing the repair

As to being "bad practice" I now understand that it is accepted (following certain guidelines) to notch joist to run plumbing. Thanks sainty for the link. Ideally I should have lifted the boards to have a look, but as they are 2.4m by 600mm staggered chipboard this would be quite difficult and time consuming to do

tigerturnings Thanks for the trouble you have taken to check your Axminster unit - unfortunately did not see your comments until after I placed an order for a Bosch DMF10. Hopefully this will be more accurate than my current system - time will tell

Maybe I have been watching too much Holmes on Homes "existing code just not good enough" . Surely it would be safer to insist that metal plates be laid over this type of pipework and/or flooring should be marked to show runs and depths. I know that this would add some cost to projects - hopefully not too much.

Cheers
Tony

[jfc]

I agree it is bad practice not to mark on the boards where your pipes or wires are running .

[engineerone]

if you think about it is no different from some leccies who save cable by going across the wall rather than down vertically and along hrizontally.

it is really laziness not to think about the long term implications of your work, but then maybe that is why so many builders get a bad name

you would think that the architects or someone else would say
"we have designed the rafters and other beams to take specific loads, surely if you cut the top or bottom surface without reinforcing it, then all my calculations are wasted"
surely by removing the top or bottom of the beam, you make it less able to carry the load, and increase the bending moment?

whether or not you like mike holmes, he is quite sensible, and does consider the long term implications of what he does, for instance putting grommets in etc. i appreciate this is only his tv face, but given the world we live in if he were not like that in the real world, them someone somewhere would have made that public

i do agree however that you should at least mark somewhere what you do. seems to me that the idea of having a home log book with all the details would be more valuable than a HIP.

paul