another project another problem?

[dom]

I agree, It's different, sort of Arts and Crafts but not quite.

[mrgrimsdale]

Interesting design. Sorta Japanesy I thought.

cheers
Jacob

[craigmarshall]

engineerone said:

ok so have moved forward somewhat, albiet slooooooowly

<snip>

anyway at least i am getting there. wish i had the same pressures as craig to finish things ;D

I sometimes wish I didn't have any external pressure to complete things, but then again, I might not get anything done! (And then I wouldn't have any money to pay the rent.)

I seem to remember seeing a table by Byron Black, from the other place, with similar raised up rails, is this a style that's growing in popularity? I don't remember seeing anything else like it anywhere else.

I like your little table, the design seems very different from classically designed side tables, but that's almost certainly the best way to be - developing your own style is how the famous makers get famous - I imagine. I need to try and do the same myself, design something a little different and eye catching.

Thanks,
Craig

[engineerone]

thanks for the comments guys, very encouraging.

to be perfectly honest, since i was restricted in the dimensions, i needed to ensure that the finished product looked light whilst had decent strength.

i made the first one in oak cause i had bunches of oak bits around the correct sizes, but after the experience, am keen to try in cherry to see whether that is easier to work in thinner sections.

the next step is to figure out a decent way to organise fitting the top to the cross stays, and i believe that colin c will be able to help me (again ) but any other bright ideas gratefully recieved.

next couple of days i will fit the drawer box top, and the cross rails, plus try and make the cedar drawer. then all i would need to consider is the top fixing, and spacing and then dowelling the lower long slats.

then of course the final problem will be convincing the customer NOT to lift the table using the top


paul

[craigmarshall]

engineerone said:

the next step is to figure out a decent way to organise fitting the top to the cross stays, and i believe that colin c will be able to help me (again ) but any other bright ideas gratefully recieved.

How about buttons?

www.originalfurnitureplans.com/plan/free/button/button.htm

I believe normally they're made so that you're able to rotate them into place and then tighten, but I think you could make the slots for them (mortises) in such a way that the buttons can't rotate (i.e. a cuboid slot, rather than the shape left by a biscuit joiner), and therefore hold the table top nice and firm in both directions? If you had a couple of these on each rail (from the inside of course), I'm sure you could pick the table up (quite roughly) by the top without any chance of the top coming loose. I'm sure there are better ways, but this is the first that comes to mind.

Cheers,
Craig

[engineerone]

thanks craig,

as for the raised rails as i said i was looking to lighten the design in a visual sense.

if you check out some of the japanese and even chinese designs of side tables, they often have this kind of "floating " rail.

as for the buttons, in principal you are right, but how do i get to the bl**dy things through the drawer box top?? ;D ;D
don't really want to put access holes in the drawer box unless i have to.

if i had the ability, i might be able to make a kind of ramped or cammed button which i could twist by hand into the slot, but so far not thought that through.

paul

[craigmarshall]

engineerone said:

as for the buttons, in principal you are right, but how do i get to the bl**dy things through the drawer box top?? ;D ;D
don't really want to put access holes in the drawer box unless i have to.

Hmm, you like making it difficult! Has the dreaded gr*pfill swear word ever been used on this forum? ;D

I'm not serious, in case anyone was wondering and thinking of banning me for bad taste.

Craig

[engineerone]

as it happens i would love to use grip fil, but not sure it will work in this circumstance

i suppose i could use a kind of dovetail slot

paul

[dom]

craigmarshall said:

engineerone said:

as for the buttons, in principal you are right, but how do i get to the bl**dy things through the drawer box top?? ;D ;D
don't really want to put access holes in the drawer box unless i have to.

Hmm, you like making it difficult! Has the dreaded gr*pfill swear word ever been used on this forum? ;D
I'm not serious, in case anyone was wondering and thinking of banning me for bad taste.

Craig

No we don't ban for that Craig.
What does happen is, that we take a tube of the aforementioned and....... ;D

[paulchapman]

engineerone said:

as for the buttons, in principal you are right, but how do i get to the bl**dy things through the drawer box top?? ;D ;D

Paul,

You said that the top and the two bits it's resting on aren't fitted yet. If that's the case, mark out where the buttons and slots will go. Then rout slots for the buttons in the two upright pieces. Make the buttons and drill the holes for them in the underside of the top and do a trial fit. Then when it's all assembled you should be able to screw the buttons in place with a small, right-angled, ratchet screwdriver.

Cheers

Paul

[craigmarshall]

dom said:

No we don't ban for that Craig.
What does happen is, that we take a tube of the aforementioned and....... ;D

Not sure I like the sound of that. Now I'm wondering what the first version of your post said, I only saw the edited version!

Craig

[engineerone]

before i cut the drawer, silly question

is cedar a hard or softwood? it's the aromatic one
i guess cedar of lebanon.

just thinking that in thin sections what angle should i do the dovetails, 1in 6 or 1in 8 or use alf's 1in 7??


paul

[craigmarshall]

engineerone said:

is cedar a hard or softwood? it's the aromatic one
i guess cedar of lebanon.

just thinking that in thin sections what angle should i do the dovetails, 1in 6 or 1in 8 or use alf's 1in 7??

It's a softwood, but you shouldn't go on that alone, I personally think you should go on how hard or soft the wood is. Or how tough or weak the wood is. e.g. balsa wood is a hardwood, but is soft as putty, douglas fir is a softwood, but could probably tolerate the same angle as some of the softer hardwoods like mahogany..

I'm personally a dovetail newbie, I'm just regurgitating advice I've read and heard elsewhere. So take it with a pinch of salt!

Cheers,
Craig


Edit: Forgot to answer the question!! cedar is quite soft as far as most woods go, I'd select 1 in 6 as my angle, but we'll see what the experts say.

[mrgrimsdale]

engineerone said:

thanks craig,

as for the raised rails as i said i was looking to lighten the design in a visual sense.

if you check out some of the japanese and even chinese designs of side tables, they often have this kind of "floating " rail.

as for the buttons, in principal you are right, but how do i get to the bl**dy things through the drawer box top?? ;D ;D
don't really want to put access holes in the drawer box unless i have to.

if i had the ability, i might be able to make a kind of ramped or cammed button which i could twist by hand into the slot, but so far not thought that through.

paul

Been thinking about your design.OK so it looks vaguely traditional in an eastern sort of way - but if you look at trad design from anywhere it usually follows the well known rule: form follows function and another rule taken for granted: form follows feasible or rational construction.
I think your design doesn't follow the second rule i.e. there isn't a simple way to put the bits together. In fact the only way I can see would be to put coach screws right through from top, to deep into the apron pieces. Could be set into the top and covered.
Or steel angle-irons tucked away underneath. Either way it's metal making up for the design being impossible in wood alone.
Or change the design and add something in wood to brace the 2 rails - but then it'd start getting too complicated.
So why not just dump plan A and put the top on to the table in the ordinary way?

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

engineerone said:

before i cut the drawer, silly question

is cedar a hard or softwood? it's the aromatic one
i guess cedar of lebanon.

just thinking that in thin sections what angle should i do the dovetails, 1in 6 or 1in 8 or use alf's 1in 7??


paul

You can do them how you like. The difference between 1:6, 1:8 is so little it makes no difference. I've just measured some on an old chest of drawers and they are about 1:3.
It's another old woodworking myth that you need these precise angles. Woodworkers seem to like rules - someone makes one up and everybody starts obeying it immediately . Just look how they all dance like puppets at all the b***x put out about sharpening ;D ;D
If the tails are too angled there's a risk that the corners might break off (couldn't see that on the chest I just looked at). If not angled enough there's a slightly increased risk that you could pull the drawer apart over the years.

cheers
Jacob

[johnboy]

Jacob wrote:-

You can do them how you like. The difference between 1:6, 1:8 is so little it makes no difference.

That is what I had always thought, nice to hear it from you Jacob.

For the mathamaticially minded with the same size narrow end of the pin the wide end will be about 1mm wider in 1/2" stock using 1:6 instead of 1:8. The included angles are approx 19 deg (1:6) and 14.2 deg (1:8). I cut all mine at 1:7 'cos that is what the cutters I have are.

John

[Alf]

S'why I use 1:7 - Woodrat-influenced, I fear, but it doesn't make any difference anyway. The only issue might be for looks - depending on the thickness of the stock some angles may look better than others.

Cheers, Alf

[wrongnail]

Did I see someone mention B******T about sharpening?

Well, for sure I couldn't see my works manager in the fifties, putting up with pieces of float glass and strips of wet'n dry littering the shop.

We had an 'India' oilstone (Never quite wide enough for the bigger plane irons) and a can of engine oil/paraffin mix. You learned to keep your wrists at the right angle and that was it. If the bevel was slightly rounded, well it still worked.

We didn't have time to faff about. One reason I kept about three ready sharpened plane irons handy. I retain that habit, although I admit to using a Tormek whetstone as I like the hollow grind.

That's my concession to modern methods! As for rules Jacob, that works manager had a few!

;D