Safety

[nickw]

There is a new 7 part series on workshop safety that started in this month's (Nov 2007, Issue 165) Popular Woodworking. From the first part it looks like this might actually be a good series; it gives general principles and the reasoning that goes behind the recommendations.

I particularly liked his statement that

Safety is a learned skill

I will now run for cover from the hail of

No it's not, it's common sense

replies

[Scrit]

It's nice to see one of the mags tackling the subject of workshop safety, even if it is an American one! Common sense often won't help when you come up with a counter-intuitive problem, so I'd agree that proper safety gear and good working practice are much more important than "common sense". After all what is common sense to one person may well be crass stupidity to another

Scrit

[mrspanton]

Somtimes that safety learning skill is what you adopt through cultural traditions. Some enlightened modern people might well think it cras and stupid to use an axe, or a bill hook (they are proto weapon's arent they??) I once was in a yard at Virollet in France and watched an old boy that was cross cutting 2 inch thick 20 inch wide elm board's with a massive chainsaw (at least 30 or 32 inch?) He was wearing canvas pumps with no laces, no shin guards or kevlar overalls, ear or eye protection. But he had no fear. I think a lot of the modern H&S emphasis actually creates fear or aprehension before people even start, like if you dont do exactly what we tell you you are doomed to have a serious accident. But isnt that the way with enforced collectivist beauracracy, that any form of activity outside of its control is to be frowned upon and treated with suspicion and eventually outlawed, like ordinary people cant be trusted to act inependently and sensibly.

[engineerone]

as an apprentice back in the 60's (19, not 18 )
in an engineering shop, we got a 10 minute safety session
after lunch at least once a day.

although much of it is common sense, when you worked in those days in a big engineering environment, it was amazing the stupidity that people exhibited. for instance not putting brakes and stoppers on hydraulic machines, or not putting them over centre. saw a number of people who became strawberry jam.

also guys who got ring fingers caught in lathes, and drill presses,
and of course the favourite long hair which got caught up.

in those days every body still wore a tie, and that was perhaps the most dangerous item of men's apparel.

i think that whilst most safety is common sense, there is always a certain amount of "i haven't been hurt before, so not now"
or the "i'm tired but will make one last attempt."

the reduction in driving hours for truck drivers has reduced the number of sleep related accidents there.

for the woodworker, the pressure is always to get the job finished, if possible more quickly than the original budgetted time, and so you think well, it's only this once. tomorrow, i will do it right

it is always easy to blame health and safety for stupid decisions, and i have done my share, but if someone had not had an accident they would not have to do a review.

it is certain that some of the decisions made in the uk are made by people who do not understand the problems involved in actually working, either on site or in the workshop, but it is worth thinking and doing quick safety surveys on tasks that you have done repeatedly, because in my experience, it is those buggers which ALWAYS catch you out.

paul

[Scrit]

mrspanton said:

I once was in a yard at Virollet in France and watched an old boy that was cross cutting 2 inch thick 20 inch wide elm board's with a massive chainsaw (at least 30 or 32 inch?) He was wearing canvas pumps with no laces, no shin guards or kevlar overalls, ear or eye protection. But he had no fear.

..... nor for that matter much common sense or safety awareness?

mrspanton said:

I think a lot of the modern H&S emphasis actually creates fear or apprehension before people even start, like if you dont do exactly what we tell you you are doomed to have a serious accident.

I'm not so sure. I'm pretty aware of the issues and I'd say that saying "don't do that" to someone is actually pointless unless you can explain why they shouldn't and proffer a viable alternative (something I generally try to do). With the cutting dynamics of certain tooling this can be pretty difficult when you are dealing with folk who simply don't understand (and care even less) about what is happening just inches away from their digits........

Despite your comments much of the safety legislation is couched in terms such as "duty of care" and "risk assesment" which place the emphasis on making a valid assessment of risks and methods of working and are designed to encourage rather than enforce safe working practice. We do have legislation on tooling design, motor braking and guarding all of which can be shown to have reduced accidents appreciably since implimented, but if you understand the dynamics of kickback are you seriously going to continue using a rip saw sans riving knife, guard and with a deficient rip fence design and bare handed (i.e. without push sticks)? For most people I think not

Scrit

[nickw]

I think that part of the problem is that people forget that 'Common Sense' is not inborn, it is rather the result of thoroughly metabolised experience. Young children do not have any 'Common Sense' and will therefore stick their fingers anywhere (a fire, rotating machinery, sharp edges, poo), stick anything in their mouths (bleach, razor blades, poo) etc. etc., and it is only after trying this, and finding it unpleasant that they develop the 'Common Sense' not to do it. Later in life they can be told that things are a bad idea by those with more experience, and through their (the child's) own experience of knowing that the person giving the advice has, on the whole, given good advice in the past will, hopefully, also metabolise those ideas without having to do the experiment themselves. Once a sufficiently large experience base has been acquired they then become able to generalise their experience to cope with some novel situations. However all the 'Common Sense' that they acquire is in the end experience based. In the process the wise child will have learned that there is always someone who has been there before, made the mistakes (or knows a man, who knows a man ... who did), and therefore has some good advice to pass on based on their experience.

One of the great lessons to learn IMHO is that just because I didn't make a mistake today does not mean that I will not make one tomorrow. That seems like 'Common Sense' to me, but perhaps other people are perfect so that doesn't apply to them.

However I do agree that there is far too much legislation. I'm hoping that we never decide to move again as I'm part way through re-wiring the house, and have been for the last 8 years

[mrgrimsdale]

Hand tools accidents usually give you a second chance and you pick up a bit more common sense. I've had one or two nasty cuts in the distant past no prob.
Machinery you may not get the 2nd chance so the learning comes too late. Chap in our local wood yard now has only one arm.

cheers
Jacob

[Scrit]

mrgrimsdale said:

Machinery you may not get the 2nd chance so the learning comes too late. Chap in our local wood yard now has only one arm.

So what do you think of the published (British) "guru" who has argued in favour of a push stick design which leaves your right hand alongside the blade at the end of the cut whilst potentially encouraging you to have the same arm reaching over the blade (albeit guarded), then? That's a prime example of the blind leading the blind - something I've found American magazines to be adept at

Scrit

[dirtydeeds]

oak is one of many timbers that moves a lot as it is being cut

until recently i was aware of only ONE reason for a riving knife on a bench saw. it stops the timber jambing the blade. a linear problem

now ive heard of and have become aware of a seond reason, it also reduces the tendancy of kick back

its a lateral problem, as the timber moves as it is cut, without a riving knife, the back of the blade can catch the back of the timber (as it comes up through the bed) and throws it up and backwards

it was a comment on an american website about the adoption by an american manufacturer of a "european riving knife"

[jaco]

Safety, not only in the workshop, is not just common sense.

There is a lot to learn from demos, working in a factory environ etc.

Who taught you to wear ear protection?
Who taught you that an RAS in rip mode launches projectiles?
Who taught you that you need to feed a router in the right direction?
And so the list goes on.
(like not getting your finger in the way of the hammer! )

Its forums like these where i learn the most about the equipment and its dangers.
Also being exposed to factories and the Health & Safety Regulations.

Ok, so i did not think quite clearly, that the thin point screwdriver could actually go all the way through my thumb!!!! F F

List all the stupid small accidents that you have had in just your worshop!

Ever fractured a finger when the table top of the router table came crashing down and you were not fast enough?? F F F

[Scrit]

Errrr....

My dad
Experience (mostly bad)
RTFM (read the flamin' manual)

So a combination of being taught and experience, however, I first learned how to use a rip saw from an old guy who (by today's standards) hadn't a clue. It took some formal training to eradicate some of this unsafe practice when it comes to wood machining! Fortunately I received that early on, however the old guy was a whiz with French cutters and ring fence work - despite the missing fingers

DD

Linear? Lateral? Riving knives reduce the tendency for timber to pinch the rear of the blade and get lifted by the rising teeth, but they should be used in conjunction with a crown guard (which can help reduce the upwards movement of the timber if a kickback occurs) and by the use of a short position rip fence which gives divergent timber somewhere to go rather than ending up pinched in between the rip fence and the blade - one of the reasons I hate cheap American-type through rip fences.

Scrit

[mel]

good old "health and safety" always good for an argument.
scrit , you must be sat at home looking for an argument ;D

as soon as you mention h+s the next thing thats mentioned is
"common sense" usually followed by the word "experience"

so. can anyone explain what is common, about sense.
we are all different , thats what makes human .
so what makes sense to me , may not make sense to you.

also i would like to sit a "common sense apptitude test" in order that i put it on my cv and boast to prospective employers about it . ;D

in my own experience , {20 + yrs} actually , nearer 30yrs
ive learnt, you cant judge a person by their level of "common sense" . which is exactly what the health and safety executive cant do either ,
all the rules and regulations we encounter on a day to day basis
come from a single source , based on accident statistics .
owing to an unusually high death rate in the building industry.
other factors are taken into account as well . lost time accidents
etc etc
we have shone a light on ourselves and a government body was brought in to help resolve the problem

the problem as i see it . is that one rule for everyone makes it a lot easier for the HSE to bring about prosecutions
rules and regulations have to be in place to set an industry standard , so when joiners go from site to site they know exactly what to look for

im trying to keep my rant to a minimum

being subject to , too tighter health and safety regime does not make a happy work place , in balance , neither does picking up the limp lifeless body of a work college. or picking up the fingers of an amputee

work safely out there ,
sits back and waits for the response

[engineerone]

as a railway enthusiast, i have attended some great lectures by various people, but one which stuck in my mind was that from a stationmaster at blackfriars.

on every platform they used to have a fire bucket without sand in it. this was the strawberry jam bucket.

almost every commuter has at some time been late, at this time, the gate keepers at blackfriars were told to slam the gate just before the train was due to leave, and often got into arguments with irate passengers, saying " i can surely make it".

the stock answer was that bucket there sir is to allow us to collect the piece of people who fall under the trains that are leaving, often too much looks like strawberry jam
tended eventually to calm people down.

we are all in a hurry, and sometimes do need to stand back and take a special look at what we do and what we intend to do, to ensure that it won't turn us or others into strawberry jam.

i've said it before being on warfarin makes you think quite hard about personal blood letting

i agree with both scrit and mel.
paul

[mrspanton]

Dont get me wrong I dont advocate stupidity or iresposible working method's
I agree with what Nick has wrote, ie that you learn common sense, you inherit it as a cultural/social tradition or whatever, from your Dad, your neighbors, mentor's, teacher's etc etc. My objection is to the fact that nowadays theres this big assunption among (especially beauracratic statist types) that ONLY state control and authorisaton is valid as a way of social or cultural develpement. Action independent of state approved methods is frowned upon as somehow duboius. This applies as much to the local govt industry, education industry, social work industry, as much as the health and safety industry. The old boy in France wasnt wearing all the kit and maybe wasnt up to speed on the latest reg's, but why would that automatically mean he had no common sense or safety awareness scrit? He still had all his hands and feet. In fact isnt there the real possbility that theres a danger that pepole will blindly begin to rely on H&S rules etc and abandon common sense altogether, and fall into false sense of security? We get so nannified now, its destroying common sense and replacing it with the full time job of keeping up with the latest rules and reg's. And anyway do you really think that some billonaire capitalist like what I once worked for is realy concerned wether you lose a finger, or even die in his factory? He's only concerned he gets into a nasty court case, the H&S talks and lectures are his let out clause. You sat for a couple of hours for a lecture, got some a4 handout's, so your trained, I'm not liable..... ;D

[jaco]

engineerone said:

i've said it before being on warfarin makes you think quite hard about personal blood letting

paul

Fully agree with Paul.
I am on the Cardio 100 and a pin prick looks like a blood bath!

[jimw]

Good discussion and I'm in general agreement.

By the way I'm what you lot would describe as a H&S officer, however I'm a REAL one with 25 years experience and a heap of qualifications to back up my profession. Even so I've learnt quite a lot about woorkworking machinery from the likes of Scit etc.

It might surprise you all to learn that the real H&S folks spend their spare time ( on their forum) ranting over much the same lines as you.

We bloody well hate and despise the incompetents that ban conkers, remembrence day marches firemen uing ladders etc.

Actually our organisation sponsored the World Conker championship the other month, just to show our distain.

[mel]

jimw . a question for you
iosh or nebosh ?

Mod Note: Kindly watch your language, Mel [Scrit]

[mrspanton]

Just to give you an example (of H&S idiotcy and indifference).
Theres a massive oak about 40 yards down the road, probably about 70 or 80 foot high. It is right next to the pavement and overhang's the road. I am sick of informing the jobsworth's at the council (3 or 4 times now) that there is a huge dead branch hanging about 40 or 50 fet directly above the road just waiting to drop onto a car when theres a gale or whatever. They obviously dont see it as a priority, fair enough I just hope it doesnt kill any one . Seeing as its a protected tree (as far as I know the only one in the village) any normal person daring to use a bit of initiative and common sense (as would of happened naturally among the community pre H&S indoctrination), who removed the dead branch would get done for molesting a listed tree. We still pay there jobsworth wages and pension though so thats nice isnt it

[jimw]

Mel,

not sure what you are asking

Don't like to brag but ;D ;D

I'm CMIOSH and also examine NEBOSH.

[Scrit]

mrspanton said:

Seeing as its a protected tree (as far as I know the only one in the village) any normal person daring to use a bit of initiative and common sense (as would of happened naturally among the community pre H&S indoctrination), who removed the dead branch would get done for molesting a listed tree. We still pay there jobsworth wages and pension though so thats nice isnt it

Ah, yes, but what you do is to use their system against them...... Write to your local councillors (who should also be on email these days - government requirement, a by the way you'll have three to go at, especially useful if they are not of the same political persuasion ;D) informing them of this public danger and pointing out that if the limb falls and injures or worse still kills some unsuspecting passer by that the council will be liable, especially in view of the fact that you personally reported it to Mr. So-and-so of the Highways Dept on such-and-such a date, and again on such-and-such a date and that the council is seemingly unwilling to do something about this problem. Attach a photo to illustrate the problem. Then copy the correspondence to the appropriate opposition part's prospective council candidate and stand back. If you have no action within 7 days send an email to the local paper, again with a photograph, and try to word it in the sort of style they use for reporting. local papers love copy that can be inserted with little work. If in addition to a county/borough/metropolitan borough council you have a parish council, then apply salt to their tails.....

Well, it's one way to stir-up a hornets nets

Scrit

[jmk89]

Just to let you know that this forum is not alone in discussing this issue - here is a link to a thread on the Woodworking Australia Forum:
www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=60601

[nickw]

scrit said:

Write to your local councillors (who should also be on email these days...

You should be able to find their e-mail addresses on WriteToThem.com