at the risk of *** more about sharpening

[engineerone]

whilst colin was helping me to finish off my coffee table, he had to make even sharper a couple of my tools.

specifically a couple of chisels, and my block plane.

it got me to thinking. we can speculate endlessly on what is sharp and how to do it, but, unless you experience the sharpness that someone else thinks is right, then how do you know.

whilst making the table, i felt that my cutting edges were pretty good, but not good enough for colin.

so yesterday, i was cleaning up with my hand planes, a panel i had glued up some time ago, and is now going to be the top of another small table. although i was getting decent shavings, it was quite difficult, and i remembered colin saying that when he was trained, they liked to hear the cutting tools "sing".

to me that meant two things, 1/ it was easy, and 2/ it sounded sleek.

so faced with some break out, and a lot more effort than i had thought necessary, i decided to massage the blades of a couple of my planes.

they were "sharp" enough, in that they could make long shavings over the board, but it was a bit of an effort.

so i took out a couple of blades, and using my dmt fine stone, and freehand, created another bevel, only tiny, but enough to be seen. the main bevel had sometime ago been created on the tormek, and i had been happy with it.

then i released the wire edge, and finally used the dmt leather strop and its blue gunge. about 5 minutes per blade, and then back to the planes.

the difference was more staggering that i expected
break out almost non existent, and a really smooth finish on the oak panel.

however i did notice a couple of other things. the two planes used were my LV No6, and my LN 62 bu, along with my LN low angle block plane, these are my favourite two planes.
because i broke the little finger on my right hand a long time ago in two places round the knuckle, it is unable to wrap round the handles properly at the bottom. thus on the LN it rubs along the base, and is somewhat painful, (another reason to touch up the edge more frequently ) whereas the No 6 is slightly, but not completely more comfortable.

there has been discussion before about the shape and feel of the two types of handles, but i had not noticed this problem before, maybe my planing action has changed

this is not designed to create more sharpening chaos, rather to suggest that there is a difference between "sharp" and "perfect"
but if you do not know what sharp is, how can you know about perfect?

paul

[paulchapman]

What you find when a blade gets dull is that the edge becomes slightly rounded. If you sharpen it you can get a burr on the edge which suggests that the blade is sharpened right across. However, if you hold the blade so that a light shines on the edge, you can sometimes find that the rounded edge has not been completely removed. Next time you sharpen a blade and you think it's sharp but it doesn't "sing", have a look at the edge with a strong light and you might find that the rounded edge hasn't been completely removed.

By putting the extra micro bevel on your blade, you were probably ensuring that the rounded edge was completely removed and, therefore, the blade ended up sharper than before. It's probably for the same reason that some people favour the so called "ruler trick" (that and compensating for slightly dished water stones when removing the wire edge). I don't use the ruler trick myself but, thinking it through, it would probably help in removing any roundness on the edge.

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

interesting as usual paul, but i think part of what has come across to me, is that since like many i work on my own, and do not have others to reference off in a practical sense, i sometimes do not have the experience to know what is singing and what is just plain hard work ;D

but i do agree that experiencing a sharp blade changes your mind about how and why you do things.

paul

[paulchapman]

engineerone said:

i work on my own, and do not have others to reference off in a practical sense, i sometimes do not have the experience to know what is singing and what is just plain hard work ;D

Next time you see Colin, watch carefully how he does it, because he's pretty good The edges he gets on those carving chisels he makes are really sharp

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

you don't mean i have to learn more from him

paul

[colincott]

paulchapman said:

engineerone said:

i work on my own, and do not have others to reference off in a practical sense, i sometimes do not have the experience to know what is singing and what is just plain hard work ;D

Next time you see Colin, watch carefully how he does it, because he's pretty good The edges he gets on those carving chisels he makes are really sharp

Cheers

Paul

Did someone call ;D
Thanks Paul
By the way did you still want that wooden plane as I forgot to bring it to Dave's bash

Engineerone

If you carry on like that I will stop show you any thing

[engineerone]

aw shucks colin,

you know you like an appreciative older audience

anyway where are you to mark my table out of 1?? ;D ;D

paul

[paulchapman]

colincott said:

By the way did you still want that wooden plane as I forgot to bring it to Dave's bash

Yes, please, if it's still available. But no hurry - next time we meet up would be OK.

Thanks

Paul

[colincott]

paulchapman said:

colincott said:

By the way did you still want that wooden plane as I forgot to bring it to Dave's bash

Yes, please, if it's still available. But no hurry - next time we meet up would be OK.

Thanks

Paul

Paul
I still have it and it has your name on it

[paulchapman]

colincott said:

Paul
I still have it and it has your name on it

Thanks Colin

Cheers

Paul

[TonyW]

engineerone said:

it got me to thinking. we can speculate endlessly on what is sharp and how to do it, but, unless you experience the sharpness that someone else thinks is right, then how do you know.
........................
but if you do not know what sharp is, how can you know about perfect?

...I sometimes do not have the experience to know what is singing and what is just plain hard work ;D

I totally agree with the above. I do not think I really know what sharp is (I like to think I am slowly getting there!) I just do not have the experience. At least you are lucky Paul you have a Colin who you can call on

Cheers ;D
Tony

[paulchapman]

tonyw said:

engineerone said:

it got me to thinking. we can speculate endlessly on what is sharp and how to do it, but, unless you experience the sharpness that someone else thinks is right, then how do you know.
........................
but if you do not know what sharp is, how can you know about perfect?

...I sometimes do not have the experience to know what is singing and what is just plain hard work ;D

I totally agree with the above. I do not think I really know what sharp is (I like to think I am slowly getting there!) I just do not have the experience. At least you are lucky Paul you have a Colin who you can call on

Cheers ;D
Tony

Couple of things you can try, Tony. The first is to meet up with other forum members in your area. Visiting the workshops of other and exchanging information and ideas is a great way to learn.

The second is to visit the shows and speak to people like Mike Husdon of Clico (the people who manufacture Clifton planes). Mike often attends shows demonstrating Clifton planes and is always happy to discuss sharpening. He's not hung up on any particular method and I've learnt some good tips from him. And you want to see his blades

Cheers

Paul

[TonyW]

Paul, thanks good advice as usual . I will have to try and make the time to follow your suggestions

Cheers
Tony

[engineerone]

without wishing to increase colin's hat size any more, i agree that those of us who have been lucky enough to work with him are indeed very privileged.

as much as anything else what i have obtained is a greater confidence in my limited skills.

one thing help does is distract you from what you perceive as flaws and bring out the assets that you have created.

i will repeat that finishing what ever you start is the most important thing, you can only improve if you know what needs to happen. a part finished item will never teach you anything.

paul

[dom]

engineerone said:

i agree that those of us who have been lucky enough to work with him are indeed very privileged.

Sorry, sorry, it was the word privileged, it's just that it's so rare to be in the prescence of greatness.



Oh sorry can't help it, tears running down cheeks.

Please don't hurt me Col

[colincott]

dom said:

engineerone said:

i agree that those of us who have been lucky enough to work with him are indeed very privileged.

Sorry, sorry, it was the word privileged, it's just that it's so rare to be in the prescence of greatness.



Oh sorry can't help it, tears running down cheeks.

Please don't hurt me Col

I think someone has forgot two very important things

1/ I did say I was coming to visit this week

2/ That Black belt is not just to hold my trousers up

See anyone that looks familiar Dom
;D ;D

[dom]

[engineerone]

so where's the cut glass, and the red hot coals

anyone can pose on the beach

now i really am very afraid

this weeks? ;D


paul

[dom]

Don't know why, but the song Y.M.C.A. keeps popping into my head. ;D

Running away................................ really fast

[engineerone]

dare we ask who is the sailor

chain, cannon ball, off to find a river bridge

paul

ps where are all these other smileys

[paulchapman]

Do you mean these ones

[colincott]

Try herefor more smileys

I pic is after about 2 hours training on the beach, with training in the sea later in the day.
Plus more training on the sunday too ;D ;D

Have a look Hereto get a better idea of what I mean and by the way, the older man in that pic is my main teacher and he has been training for only about 39 years

All I have to do now is workout who is first

[engineerone]

we'll all stand around and happily wait

paul

[paulchapman]

colincott said:

he has been training for about 39 years

You'd have thought he'd have got the hang of it by now ;D

Hat, coat,

[colincott]

paulchapman said:

colincott said:

he has been training for about 39 years

You'd have thought he'd have got the hang of it by now ;D

Hat, coat,

Paul

Believe me when I say that I would notlike to be in his way if he was in a bad mood
He is 64 too