Joints

[Alf]

Well I'm not sure how well this'll go down over here, but I've been kicking the idea around since June and I've got to inflict on someone else somewhere. So here goes; try and follow the thinking:

1. Hand Tool dedicated boards all over the 'net are knee-deep in tool talk (which is great) but a casual observer may be under the impression that neanderthals never actually use said tools.

2. Practicing new techniques on a project isn't practicing, it's committing yourself without having a clue. So it's all too tempting to use the same old joint every time, or turn to a tailed demon.

3. Practicing techniques for the sake of it is, for me at least, hard to do. Personally I need an outside influence to get me to do that sort of thing. I think maybe I'm not alone in this.

4. There's a deplorable lack of information online about various wood joints.

Still with me? Well how about we do a Joint of The Month? No, not that kind of joint (although I did work hard to think up the Society for Promotion of Lignum Interaction For Fun...)

a) Pick a joint - basic as a simple M&T right through to one of those weird Japanese things, swapping monthly from easy to difficult to keep the seasoned folks amused if you like. Hopefully not leaving it to one person to do all the work in that regard...

b) Folks can do one to one-a-day depending on what they fancy (one in a whole month should be okay to slip into an otherwise crowded schedule I reckon?)

c) Take pics step by step on how you tackled it, or just the finished joint, or just write a bit of how you did and any tips you found that helped. Or, of course, cries for help 'cos it won't go right (I resemble that section of woodworking life)

d) We end up with a reference of all sort of different joints, how they can me made with hand tools, plus everyone who has a go will probably get to learn something. Possibly that routers aren't so bad...

Any thoughts, comments, brickbats?

Cheers, Alf

[Scrit]

toobyefore said:

Hand Tool dedicated boards all over the 'net are knee-deep in tool talk (which is great) but a casual observer may be under the impression that neanderthals never actually use said tools.

You mean they DO use hand tools?

toobyefore said:

Practicing new techniques on a project isn't practicing, it's committing yourself without having a clue.

Or in some case it's simply the risk taking inherrent in making a living at it, although the temptation is always to do it the fastest, easiest and ergo the cheapest way.

toobyefore said:

There's a deplorable lack of information online about various wood joints.

Agreed

toobyefore said:

Well how about we do a Joint of The Month? No, not that kind of joint (although I did work hard to think up the Society for Promotion of Lignum Interaction For Fun...)

OK, so what are you going to give us first? I know someone who'd like to know have to do a parson's table mitre joint (no, not me). Do you feel up to that? Only kidding. Seriously I think that this is an excellent idea

Scrit

[jfc]

yup i think its a good idea too . Nice one Alf !

[paulchapman]

Great idea, Alf I'd wouldn't mind having a go when I've finished my table (where all the joints have been/are being done with biscuits ;D).

I know there are some people on here who are excellent at hand tool joints

Cheers

Paul

[pigeonsarse]

Alf - Tip Top! ;D

[dom]

Coincidence, I think not, plainly Alf you are from my home planet of Zog where telepathy is the only means of communication.

Yesterday I spoke with Jfc and described a joint to him, he then proceeded to tell me the best way of doing it.
Anyway when he had finished I telephoned Scrit to find out how to make this joint properly.
Turns out JFC was right. ;D
It's called a Parsons Mitre.
It is simply a three way mitre
Imagine the corner of a box in skeleton form i.e. three lengths of wood meeting at the corner.
I have 32 of these joints to make
On recommendation I will be using loose tenons and strong adhesive .
But if any brave soul would care to demonstrate...........

Dom

[Alf]

Hail, fellow Zogovian! Sounds fiendish in the extreme - I'd say "sounds a bit like a "showcase joint"?" but I daresay Scrit'd be all over me like a rash pointing out how wrong I am. Perhaps for all our healths we should start with something easier - like a mitred dovetail... ;D

Anyway, don't all look at me. I'm just the ideas woman. I'm relying on the experienced members to step up to this one, 'cos I'm definitely in the supplicant at the fount of knowledge catergory here.

Cheers, Alf

[jfc]

Were all far to busy pressing buttons and things ;D

[dom]

Zogovians rejoice ve hev ein link

books.google.com/books?id=rCiImAM0Z-cC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=parsons+mitre+woodwork&source=web&ots=7-l6MVsuR8&sig=nhsbWOp9S0zMhZY_226nTEE5jTU

Click on other multiple joints and scroll way down on the pdf

Dom

[Alf]

Am I allowed to just take the book off the shelf, the old fashioned way...? ;D

[dom]

If everyone read thems book thingies what would be the point of the forum ?

[Scrit]

dom said:

It's called a Parsons Mitre.

Hmmm. I wonder who told you that

dom said:

On recommendation I will be using loose tenons and strong adhesive

......and suggested that litle wrinkle.........

BTW, you'll find the glue up really interesting - so long as you've had that third arm grafted on!

As to a demonstration, I think your keenness means that you, dear Dom, should have the honour of showing us, wouldn't you say?

Scrit

[niki]

dom said:

But if any brave soul would care to demonstrate...........

Dom

I had some 5 minutes free time and I made it.......

Well, I mean, scanned it...

The "Showcase joint"

[colincott]

I too have to say that it is a great idea Alf.

So how else is going to do some and what ones

[Lord Nibbo]

niki said:

Well, I mean, scanned it...

The "Showcase joint"

Excellent one Niki

Here's another for the file

A Pedestal Joint

[tellurian]

Well Lord Nibbo, I look forward to your work in progress shots of that one.

Seriously though, I think alf has had an excelllent idea. I'd offer to showcase my latest crappy mortice and tenon but I don't seem to do much beyond standing wistfully in the workshop these days.

[dom]

The more I look at those joints the more I want to get back to the basics of proper woodworking and stop, as Scrit said,"to do it the fastest, easiest and ergo the cheapest way."

[nickw]

Excellent idea Alf.

I would say to those who have scanned pics though, that to do that alone is missing the point to some extent. Without instructions, tips, wrinkles and wheezes on the subject of how best to make the joints the exercise will be rather sterile.

For instance with the Parson's/Exhibition case/Three-way mitre (Frid's name for it) joint is it better to make the mortices before or after cutting the mitre?

If find it interesting that Frid recommends using a router or morticing machine for making the mortices, presumably he thinks that that method will result in more accurate placement.

To the keeper of the spelling checker: it doesn't believe in "mitre" or "mortices".

[J]

Alf,
What a great idea.
Personally, I'd like to start a bit lower down the scale.

Butt joint,
Half Lap joint,
Miter Joint,
Housing Joint,
M&T Joint,
Dovetail Joint,

If I am confident in doing all of these in 6 months time, I'll be very happy.

J

[mrgrimsdale]

Talking of tips and wrinkles I've just been reading "7 essentials of Woodworking" by A Guidice. It's good in parts but bad in others.
Where its bad is in joints. He's a bad case of krenovitis and is keen on the bridle joint in place of the mortice and tenon. But even worse is that he doesn't seem to know the basic trick of joint making, which I'm sure everybody here just takes for granted, but there may be a beginner reading this.
This basic trick being to leave everything that you can over-length, until the last moment. So frinstance a through tenon you leave sticking out by 1/2" or so - and the wedges, and trim it back and "block it in" with a block plane, after the glue has dried.
BTW the prob with the bridle joint is: looks messy, is entirely glue dependent with no strength of it's own, more difficult to cut neatly than it looks, needs cramping up 3 ways - both sides of the frame and also a g clamp over the corner to keep the jaws tight against the tenon. And the clamps have to be left in place until the glue dries. Whereas with a wedged M&T you can take them off immediately after knocking in the wedges.

cheers
Jacob

[Alf]

Right, so we're "on" then? Obviously the details need some ironing out; like an even balance between oh-my-god joints and more urgh-I-thought-these-were-supposed-to-be-simple ones. Nick has the idea nicely - tips, wrinkles, what novices found difficult or helpful, foul-ups etc. Maybe include references to books and articles on how to do that joint. Hang on, how about a mock-up:

Starter post:

Joint: Hopper or Skew Dovetail.



Through dovetails on a compound angle.

Typical attempt by muppet:

Blah blah, here's a tip I found for marking the dovetails correctly.



Blah blah, thought I was being clever using a squared block to guide my chisel, until I realised it needs to be pared at an angle because of the compoundness. D'oh.



Finished joint, blah blah. Not correct, but it works after a fashion...



Refs: WoodCentral and Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, Joinery: Tools and Techniques, Chapter 5.

As to which joints we do and who gets to choose, erm, any thoughts? Perhaps a master list with a 1-3 star rating of difficulty? That way we could rotate through easy, tricky, help-me! ? Wadda you think?

Cheers, Alf

[andee]

Well I've built 3 tables all could be described as Parson's tables but none had a joint like that

Hell I never even knew I had a joint named after me.

Andy, whose nose runs in the family

[Scrit]

nickw said:

For instance with the Parson's/Exhibition case/Three-way mitre (Frid's name for it) joint is it better to make the mortices before or after cutting the mitre?

I thought that the best way to deal with this sort of thing was the chairmaker's way - cut the joints then cut the mitres (like chairs - cut the joints then do the shaping)

Scrit

[nickw]

Well there you go, great minds do differ occasionally. Frid does the mitres first, then the mortices using a jigged router, and removes the rounded ends by hand with a chisel.

[Scrit]

nickw said:

Frid does the mitres first, then the mortices using a jigged router...

I think the way I'd go is nearer to Jacob's leave the length long then trim afterwards. Cutting the mitre in my mind is the trimming bit, although I'd cheat to an extent and use a mitre guillotine

Scrit