Joints

[mrgrimsdale]

nickw said:

Well there you go, great minds do differ occasionally. Frid does the mitres first, then the mortices using a jigged router, and removes the rounded ends by hand with a chisel.

They do seem to make life difficult for themselves some of these "names" . It'd be much easier to do the mortices 1st, with the pieces over length to support the router - and you wouldn't need to fiddle about with a jig.
Even easier with a morticer of course and you wouldn't need to trim the ends of the mortice.

cheers
Jacob
PS I've grown more and more dubious about the info produced by highly respected "experts" and begin to wonder if it's all a plot to confuse the beginner and keep the craft mysterious and protected Or do they just make it up as they go along to keep ahead of the class, in the traditional teachers way ;D
PPS another basic rule for beginners - you keep everything in the square and over length as long as possible, to retain a reference surface and marks for the morticer/router/moulding plane etc whatever, and to protect the ends/corners

[colincott]

I would have to agree with Jacob on this

I would do that joint the same way.

[engineerone]

so my experiences with the through mortices on the table top will eventually be of interest i guess

no pictures so far, but you may remember that my table top is an odd shape, and not the same top to bottom.

what i should have done i now know is to make a pattern of the top shape, out of cardboard or thin mdf, and then i could have put it on the top as well as the bottom

of course i didn't and drilled through from the bottom, and then i discovered the real problem with old oak, it is very friable, ( that means kind of flaky, well to me : i have ended up with two problems, more breakout than i had expected, and different sizes top and bottom.

i have a solution which i shall divulge later, but what a pita.

paul

[Alf]

Hope you all realise I'm still waiting for someone else to start a master list of joints? Not gonna give in and do all the work you lazy blighters.

Cheers, Alf

[mrgrimsdale]

toobyefore said:

Hope you all realise I'm still waiting for someone else to start a master list of joints? Not gonna give in and do all the work you lazy blighters.

Cheers, Alf

Righto. You could start with simple butt joints. My old dad was an amateur woodworker and he made some neat shelves using only butt joints, nails and glue. 7x3/4 redwood.
The shelves were held with glue and nails through the sides. The top nailed and glued to the end grain of the sides. The back, ply nailed and glued to back of sides, top and shelves.
Oak stain, occasional wax polish, rusty nail heads; and you wouldn't know it was so simply made, and they've been in use for 50 years or more.
You nail the points just through the boards before you try to put the pieces together; so that they will self locate when you glue and finish nailing. Then you don't need cramps or anything. You could pre-drill if there is any chance (knots etc) of a nail going off line and splitting a board end.
Nails are much neater than screws.
cheers
Jacob

[mrspanton]

mrgrimsdale said:

Talking of tips and wrinkles I've just been reading "7 essentials of Woodworking" by A Guidice. It's good in parts but bad in others.

Just as a side note to the run of this thread (I could do some pics of how to do a taper'd round tennon as in chair seat's if it would be apropite enough?) What do you reckon jacob to Mr Gudice's comments as regard's using the same standard saw for ripping and crossing? He is evidently a fan of european bowsaw's, (with his italien name, maybe a second or third generation italiaen american who kept the family radition's?)

[colincott]

Mrspanton

Nice to see you have joined us

[mrgrimsdale]

mrspanton said:

mrgrimsdale said:

Talking of tips and wrinkles I've just been reading "7 essentials of Woodworking" by A Guidice. It's good in parts but bad in others.

Just as a side note to the run of this thread (I could do some pics of how to do a taper'd round tennon as in chair seat's if it would be apropite enough?) What do you reckon jacob to Mr Gudice's comments as regard's using the same standard saw for ripping and crossing? He is evidently a fan of european bowsaw's, (with his italien name, maybe a second or third generation italiaen american who kept the family radition's?)

Well I wouldn't know. Is it true what he says - that the bow saw is used in Europe and that our familiar tenon/crosscut etc handsaw is strictly Britain and colonies?
It's an odd book so you can't take anything for granted IMHO.
I've just got hold of J Brown Welsh Stick Chairs. Been after it since Alf and others on _{a certain group} recommended it. It's a little gem. Complete contrast to the normal run of modern woodwork books - single minded concentration on doing just one thing really well, with no product placement, no obsessive sharpening, no desperate struggle to be different or original, B&W photos in an unostentatious but very classy simple page layout.
cheers
Jacob

[mrspanton]

Hi Jacob
Well from my experience bow saw's are still commonly used on the continent Franve germany etc They sell them in tool shop's in France and bisaigues (mortice axe's and wooden planes as well) and I suppose when they immigrated to the USA they took what tools they had and were familiar with. But Henry Disston (first rate businessman innovator and philantropist, from Norfolk I believe) somehow cornered the market in handsaw's in america at the peak of activity for carpentery in the latter part of the 19th centruty.
But as for his theory about using the same saw for ripping and crossing? I cant remember exactly what tooth cut angle and amount of set he advised in his little book, but I dont see how a rip tooth will cut cleanly across the grain or how a cross cut tooth will adequaetley chip and clear in a ripping senario?? I do remember an old bloke once saying you could set up a saw to do both jobs but that was in the context of site work pre elecrtic tool's era, and where fine finish on joistsand rafters wasnt an issue
PS Colin are you the colinc off of UKW who sent me some info about autism?

[mrspanton]

You were just editing as I did my last post Jacob ;D
Yeah I have read Mr Brown's book and in parts its good, pity about he uses up so much space on his mystrious anti english diatribes But anyway once you get beyond that its great. His method is somehow similar to what I have aspired to. More about discovering an atitude or approach than a predictable patronising formula or tedious set of measured drawings etc to copy slavishly like what most of the woodwork book industry put's out. Learning how YOU will make YOUR chair not a carbon copy from yet another "course". Look up windsor chair on the net. 99% of the time they are clones of a certain American chairmaking author, made alsomst exclusively by people who paid a lot to attend his presence on a course and are almost in a franchise situatin.

[noel]

I'm finding this thread surprisingly interesting and that's a reflection on me rather than the content. Look forward to reading the rest of it.

[engineerone]

to set alf off into the lands of WHY

my thoughts on the most difficult joints for the newer woodworker, or those of us returning after years.

1/ the lap joint
2/ rebated butt joint
3/ through mortice and tenon


number one is surprisingly difficult to achieve, quickly, easily and accurately with the basic hand tools. the fact that it is not as strong as we might want is both an advantage and a disadvantage. its real strength is that it gives you the impression it is easy to do, but cutting by hand accurately and then chiselling flat and properly the laps is still really difficult.

number two is also dependant with hand tools, on your skill with the saw, to make the joint square and true.

number 3 is when you start out, and use hand tools a bugger to get right. having done 16 stopped m/t's and then the 4 on the top of the table i would much rather do the stopped ones. they are easier to hide your mistakes with

the reason that i have not yet completed the coffee table is the mess i have made with the through mortices. i am working on a way round the problem, but it is time consuming.

i now know i should have made a full size pattern of the shape to ensure that since i was using an odd shape table top, it was centred properly top and bottom.

of course i didn't thought i knew better

i will now have to infill the mortices to make it look like i had designed it so

halfway through i remembered the old motto, when you are at the bottom of a hole, stop digging ;D

i know understand why most people use a morticer, and so many router morticing jigs are available

paul

[mrgrimsdale]

Same here - when I was learning I found 1st efforts at simple joints like a half housing really difficult. I ended up doing dozens of them for more than a week, whilst everybody else had moved on to other things. Its the only way to learn - by doing it repeatedly, but also thinking about why it is/isn't working. But then a half housing will show up defects which would be hidden away within a M&T, so it has it's own problems.
The only "trick" is the usual one; proper marking up. You mark with a gauge only from the face side. This means that the tenon will be on the face, but the housing on the back (or vice versa) but both marked from the face with the same setting of gauge. So the gauge setting gives you the depth of the tenon and the depth of the housing (which may or may not be near the centreline of the work pieces- which could have different thicknesses etc.)

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

although slightly off topic, this follows up on making grooves, etc

i wonder why people use 6 mm or so for the bottom of most drawers.

i don't understand why it was used years ago, but these days, we stuff so much into the drawers that i have never really had a drawer bottom stay sound for very long in a store bought one.

i can see the benefit of nk drawers slips but even there, people often use 6mm centre so the question is why?

paul

[craigmarshall]

engineerone said:

i wonder why people use 6 mm or so for the bottom of most drawers.

i don't understand why it was used years ago, but these days, we stuff so much into the drawers that i have never really had a drawer bottom stay sound for very long in a store bought one.

I had no idea there was a standard of 6mm for drawer bottoms, but then I'm still learning. I think if I were making drawers, I would instinctively choose the thickness of the drawer bottom based on the size of the drawer and the planned contents - I know drawers get things stuffed into them that were never planned to be, so I'd try and make them a bit heavier than necessary.

e.g. If I were making a divan bed, with big three foot wide drawers, that might have allsorts thrown in there, a tent, boots, hair dryer, old books etc., they'd need at least 12mm ply bottoms, and if I had some 18mm lying around I might even use that. You could test that particular mechanism by opening the drawer half way and then standing in it (!). But then again a jewelry box or a small presentation box could easily have a 4mm bottom.

Sorry - probably stating the obvious,
Craig

[engineerone]

craig, just go look in places like ikea and even john lewis, that will give you a good idea of these kind of things

but also if you look in some of the design books, or the magazines people still seem to design within these limits

but i do appreciate your thoughts too, all grist to the mill

paul

[dunbarhamlin]

engineerone said:

of course i didn't and drilled through from the bottom, and then i discovered the real problem with old oak, it is very friable, ( that means kind of flaky, well to me :

;D Reminds of my favourite quote from Gray's Anatomy back in my college days:

The liver is friable

I kid you not - and I'm not convinced the authors were even aware of the pun.

[engineerone]

after that one you should go to your corner and suck your thumb

since you are luthier, maybe you could help me, colin is rebuilding a mandolin for me, and so i need to get some strings, any bright ideas near west london please?

paul

[davyowen]

Hi Paul, the best idea is to get them online. You'll almost certainly get them cheaper than any local music shop and you'll have a much wider variety too.

I get all my strings from Stringsdirect (then again, I do have a trade account with them )

www.stringsdirect.co.uk/Catalogue/default.aspx?categoryId=164

[TonyW]

dunbarhamlin said:

;D Reminds of my favourite quote from Gray's Anatomy back in my college days:

The liver is friable

I kid you not - and I'm not convinced the authors were even aware of the pun.

I think it went on to say "and good with fava beans and a nice Chianti fff fff fff fff fff"

Cheers ;D
Tony
p.s. Is anyone going to take up the illustrated step by step to specific joints?

[dunbarhamlin]

Ha. Hi Paul

I always get my strings online. I use Newtones - available direct or from Eagle Music in Huddersfield (www.eaglemusicshop.com/category.asp/CatID/18/instrument-strings.htm - always very helpful)

Which strings will be appropriate depends on the style of mandolin (and playing style, of course.)
Particularly, if it is a bowl back, then you want to err on the light side. If an American F-style 'bluegrass' carved instrument, you can go heavier.

For great info on all things mandolin, try www.mandolincafe.com

(O yes, no affiliation/financial interest etc)

Cheers
Steve

[davidc]

If interested in the secret mitre dovetail try page 75 of my first book.

This contains rather more detail than the masterful few sentences of Joyce. ;-)

David Charlesworth

[nickw]

Welcome Mr C. Good to see you've found us (at last).

[paulchapman]

Hi David & welcome.

Cheers

Paul

[engineerone]

thanks for the hints to the mandolin which is according to the piece of paper stuck inside an italian one of the 1890's
given that it came from my old man that seems possible, rather than it being a "sexton" so is a european one with a back.

welcome david c nice to see you too have come over to the dark side ;D

paul