Old into New (Sash window help)

[thallow]

One of my other small windows (3ft x3ft aprox) has a small cheap aluminium frame and needs replacing. During the repair of one of my sash windows (and having seen its construction) I am happy that I can build a new sash from scratch to replace the old metal thing.

However, having looked at the window space itself there is no supporting brickwork which to push a new sash frame against.

(see picture - apologies for my v amatuer use of sketck up )



see the image on the left is how most of the other windows in my house have been built (ie a lip of bricks to push a sash window against) BUT this one small window is the same as the one on the right - so my question is how do I (if at all) fit a sash style window into this space - I dont want to really add extra bricks as it will look odd and make the space even smaller; is there a way of building a sash window to accommodate this?

[jfc]

You could run the new sash on springs or spirals , these let you build the sash in the same way but you dont need the box part to run the weights .

Closest picture to no box that i could find

[mrgrimsdale]

If there isn't a rebate then it almost certainly was never a sash, although you do get sashes in unrebated openings in earlier buildings.
I'd just do a simple casement but with same details on the light to match the sashes.

cheers
Jacob

[thallow]

Thanks for the post jfc , and excuse my daft question - but your picture looks like a sash window to me (albeit without the back part of the box) how would this fit into my unstepped window hole - I probably and being really dumb and maybe need to stand back from the grey to see the elephant! but I just dont get it!

Jacob thanks FYI, I was hoping you would give me some of your sash window insight! I think you are correct in that this window was knocked thru and added to the house at a later stage as it does not have the same lintle (lintel?) as the others, I like the idea of a casement opening!

This is about job no 83 on my ever growing list - but I like to sit and stew on these things....will keep you posted as things progress (or should i say when things progress!) Cheers ;D

[jfc]

Sorry it was the only picture i could find without a full box on it . Basicly if you take away the box part you are left with the internal lining . I you make this lining lets say 32mm thick you can rebate the spirals into the lining and this will lift your sashes . If you are going to use double glazed k glass units you will have trouble finding the weights to lift your windows anyway so will have to use spirals or springs .

[dirtydeeds]

i beg to differ jfc

there is no problem getting weights to control heavy double glazed units

just ring Reddiseals or Mighton. Both companies deliver in 24 hours


most standard size/weight spring balances are delivered in 24 hours

BIG spring balances on the other hand are special order items, but most of the time even those are delivered in under a week

[jfc]

I'm just going from my own experiance , trying to fit weights to carry a kglass unit into a box sash that used to carry 3mm glass has never worked for me . The weights do not fit in the box .
In this situation weights are not an option as there is no room for a box .

[dirtydeeds]

i agree that the diagrams indicate spring balances are the solution to the posted problem



back to the weights and k glass

what thickenss sashes and were you installing the K glass units into

what was the thickness of the k glass units

did you make new sashes to take the k glass units because even installing 6mm toughened into an original that took 3mm is a job in itself

the minimum k glass units would be about 4/8/4 with argon thats 16mm into a rebate that took 3mm that would verge on the not possible



i not disagreeing with your problem, box dimensions do restrict the amount of weight you can get into them

[jfc]

I dont refurb the old sashes i only make new so the glass has to be 4 16 4k or 4 14?argon 4k . The sashes are 45mm thick but ive started to make them 50mm thick if i have the room .

[mrgrimsdale]

dirtydeeds said:

i agree that the diagrams indicate spring balances are the solution to the posted problem



back to the weights and k glass

what thickenss sashes and were you installing the K glass units into

what was the thickness of the k glass units

did you make new sashes to take the k glass units because even installing 6mm toughened into an original that took 3mm is a job in itself

the minimum k glass units would be about 4/8/4 with argon thats 16mm into a rebate that took 3mm that would verge on the not possible



i not disagreeing with your problem, box dimensions do restrict the amount of weight you can get into them

I decided a long way back that trying to fit DG or even just thicker glass even 4mm, to an old sash, was just not worth the bother. Makes life simpler to be a 100% conservationist purist ;D ;D
They phone up and say will you do this that or the other. If it isn't pure replication, like for like, I just say no.
Have turned away a lot of work but haven't ever been short of it.
If a light has 4mm (modern) glass in it I will replace it with 3mm - sometimes even thinner where appropriate. Crown glass (small panes) can vary from 6mm to 1mm in the one piece.
Weights - it's easy enough to cast your own from scrap lead - make one up in softwood (square section) and make a mould in ordinary soft builders sand a bit damp. You can saw it to exact weight and drill a hole, no prob.

cheers
Jacob

[dirtydeeds]

50/52mm sashes allows you to have 50mm square lead weights, this is enough to hang DG units

the trick is to add sufficient additional weight to overcome all the draft stripping


the customers pay me to bother about the extra work, i dont turn box sash work down, its the most interesting carpentry work going. there is more risk in the work but its worth it

[dirtydeeds]

i dont have the time to start up my own dark satanic mills operation and im not an elgar fan

ac dc (dirty deeds done dirt cheap) and zz topp (sharp dressed carpenter) is more up my street when im working

[jfc]

its the most interesting carpentry work going.

[trsleigh]

If there's no rebate why not get stuck in with an angle grinder and make one.

[thallow]

trsleigh said:

If there's no rebate why not get stuck in with an angle grinder and make one.

Hi trs & Welcome! That IS a good idea, I suppose cutting the step from the inside would give me the ledge that I need - in fact I just thought I could even just pull out bricks from the inside wall? Hmm food for thought
cheers mate ;D

[dirtydeeds]

cutting the rebate isnt difficult

the thing to consider is the lintel

[thallow]

True - but could I just not create a step on the lintel out of wood (or other material) in order to form the step across the top? and then create a 'normal' step at the sides by removing bricks from the inside and then have a 3 sided (top and sides) step against which to secure a box sash?

[dirtydeeds]

IF ive understood your post correctly

there are two bits things that sound between iffy and plain bad

reducing the depth of a lintol is not something that i would consider for any reason

and as for reducing the bearing of a lintol, i seem to remember that 9 inch bearing both ends is the preferred minimum



i guess where im comming from is make sure your lintol is not compromised or you install a new lintol that maintains the depth and bearing.

[thallow]

DD, I would not change the lintle, possibly just add to its depth to create a step - I think however I am going to go for a simple casement as jacob suggested, the window is round the back and generally out of sight, so I could make it look like a sash but open like a casement, well that is the plan! ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

If it's a casement I'd make it look like a casement, and vice versa with the sashes ;D
You get a lot of this identity confusion in woodwork - kitchen doors which open to reveal drawers, false drawer fronts on cupboards, "wood effect" plastic surfaces etc
Worst extreme is in high end furniture such as Barnsley where a huge effort is put into making wood look like plastic.
All madness ;D ;D

cheers
Jacob

[thallow]

mrgrimsdale said:

If it's a casement I'd make it look like a casement, and vice versa with the sashes ;D

Hmm I must disagree, surely if all my other windows are sash then this one little one round the back will look (even more) out of place if it is a casement? If I can emulate the sash 'look' ie muntins (?) etc to mimick the other ones, surely that is better? guess it does come down to personal taste! ;D

[dirtydeeds]

muntins are a vertical divider in a door at any location except the stiles

the vertical divider in a window frame is a mullion at any location except the external frame legs (unless it has another function when it is called something else)

perhaps you mean glazing bars

[thallow]

dirtydeeds said:

perhaps you mean glazing bars

Yes if that is the correct term for the vertical bars in a window then these are what I mean

[jfc]

Is there any reason why you dont want to make a sash window with the assisted lifts ? Seems to me they are the perfect answer to your no rebate problem . I use them on all my sash windows with double glaing in them .

[thallow]

er, I guess because I have no original to copy, there is a crappy old aluminium thing there at the moment! I dont think I have ever seen the assisted lift style? (I will have a look on-line) so
currently I am left with the ambivalence of a none matching casement or a fake sash! hmm anyway this job is about 38 on the 'other things to do list' so there is no rush whilst I mull things over...! ;D