linseed oil paints

[mrgrimsdale]

I've been using Holkham Hall linseed paint on my big windows, in the hopes that it will last as long as it says on the tin.
What's certainly true is that ordinary modern paints seem completely bloody hopeless AFAIAC. 3/5 years absolute max before complete new paint job.
Anyway - yes it takes a long time to dry 2/3 days, although I'm doing them inside so you don't get the breezes, and yes it's expensive £30ish a litre.
But - it's really convenient just having the one medium* - oil itself, or oil paint, no undercoat or primer, it's fast and easy to put on, it covers well so may be economical and gives every impression of sticking really well. Not as glossy as modern gloss, which I prefer anyway.
*two mediums - there's also shellac in the glazing rebates but you just splash it on and it dries fast.
Have been using round fitch brushes for the glazing bars.
Anybody got any tips on how to paint glazing bars perfectly first time without having to go round with stanley knife scrapers etc?

cheers
Jacob
PS and cleans off hands (soap and water) or cloth really well - takes so long to dry. No solvent fumes to breathe in, no pungent solvent pongs or dry skin etc. In fact the more I use it the more I like it.

[mrgrimsdale]

"how to paint glazing bars perfectly first time without having to go round with stanley knife scrapers etc?" answer might be a mahl stick. Has anybody used one for glazing bars, or any other suggestions. I've got a lot to do and want to get it right.

cheers
Jacob

[tusses]

masking tape ?

[mrgrimsdale]

Jun 2, 2008 7:49:26 GMT tusses said:

masking tape ?

Nope. Takes an age to stick on neatly. Paint runs under it, or pulls off in sheets when you lift it.
I want to be able to bung it on fast but perfectly, or as near as possible.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

actually i dont think there is any way of avoiding it totally, since if i remember correctly, you need a little paint on the joint between the glass and the bars to stop water running underneath and soaking the wood.

what you are looking for is the minimum of paint in this intersection, and you are right, that artists stick is one decent way, it is used by old fashioned ie proper sign writers.

what it does is stop your hand brush shaking, and enables you to run a cleaner line.

paul

[dandrew]

Jacob,

I think even Holkham recommend that you paint onto the glass and then use a stanley knife to cut back to the edge. I would have thought that a mahl stick, like signwriters use, would be a good idea, though I imagine that if you did paint onto the glass and used a stanley knife you could peel of the extra as a thin strip rather than scraping.

I've found them a bit tricky to use - the darker the colour the longer the drying time (2 days for white, 5 days for sage green) and they dry a little streaky, corresponding the the summer and winter growth rings in the timber. As you say, very good coverage so the extra purchase cost pays off in terms of square footage painted. Wether the truly don't crack and peel only time will tell, but the literature seems convincing.

Cheers, David

[mrgrimsdale]

Yes I know to paint on to the glass. What I'd like to do is a perfect straight 2 or 3mm overlap without having to scrape back. I'll be having a go with the mahl stick - got some more glazing and waiting for putty to dry, first!
BTW trad glazing has putty bead well below the line of sight across the rebate triangle. Ideally this should alow for a paint overlap on to the glass which won't be very noticeable from the inside.

cheers
Jacob

[tusses]

masking tape - yes it does take a few minutes to apply

if you stick it down tight with your finger nail , then you dont get the paint ingress

and finally - take it off before the paint is dry and it doesn't peel any off !

I tend to go for a good steady hand tho - cant be bothered with masking - or scraping !

[mrgrimsdale]

Jun 2, 2008 21:18:04 GMT tusses said:

take it off before the paint is dry and it doesn't peel any off

Right. Hadn't thought of that. Brill.
Am aiming for the steady hand though - should be quicker in the long run and a degree of 'hand finished' appearance is OK if not desireable even.

cheers Jacob

[nicker]

Linseed is my preferred paint as well, although I usually use a primer (just thin zinc white paint, about half boiled linseed and half zinc white). I usually also apply as much raw linseed to the wood as possible, at least on old windows where the wood isn't that perfect any more. But they are just spices in the soup, you can do it with the linseed oil paint only.

All the better if you apply 2-3 coats, one won't cover enough and with zinc white primer you probably need a second top coat anyway.


Painting the glazing bars isn't easy, but doable. A round fitch brush is good, although new ones are a bit too long so you may want to tie it down a bit (thin twine spun on the bristles about 10-15 mm hardens the brush nicely). They wear in use, so only in a couple o years you get a perfect brush ;D

Tying the bristles down helps a bit, another trick is to rotate the brush slowly when drawing the line, always against the move on glass.

I just had a trip to touch up windows that I restored five years ago. Just touched up some cracks on putty and re-painted the visible surfaces, a good half hour job per window. I managed to get most of it OK, but you will have to go the windows over with a scraper afterwards anyway. Nobody is that good that there wouldn't be some small spots or splashes on the window.

When I'm restoring windows in the workshop, I always paint on the glass. It's fast to put a thin ruler on the glazing bar or putty and just scrape by the edge of the scraper. One sweep per glazing bar and you're done. On the inside you don't even need the ruler, just lean on the wood.

Afterwards I wash the windows with soft soap and water to remove greasy fingerprints and also to thin down the edge of the scraped paint.

Nick

P.S: tape isn't an option. You have to try one window only and you know why.

[mrspanton]

Linseed paint is tough. I made some and it has astonished me how well it has survived outside in all weathers hot cold wet dry and it hasnt cracked peeled or faded. I just used boiled oil, artists oil colour to tint real trupentine and terebine acelerator. Mine isnt a scientific professional solution but it has certainly worked well.
As for painting, like sharpening, the less you worry the easier it gets. What brush do you use (is it clifton, vertas or lee nielson ) ;D You wont get a slick result with a cheap chinease brush. The Frenchies and Italiens use those round copper ferrule ones. I seem to remember a bloke on this old house he was a specialist restoration decorator, he used chisel point brushes to "cut in" (lousy pun) th corners first then lay a line of paint just onto the glass and covering the wood. He was FAST and he knew it too ;D

[mrgrimsdale]

Yes I've got some "fitch" brushes - round copper ferrules and string bound. Seem to be doing the job. Practice, practice!
There are also "sash" brushes at AJ Handover - might give one a whirl.
I'm pleased to hear that linseed oil paint is favoured, it's certainly nice to use.

cheers
Jacob
NB I've done 1000s of windows over the years but always left in primer, for someone else to finish. Often not very well; failed paint seems normal and is the cause of all my call backs - so it's been handy being able to blame the decorator!

[nicker]

I did not find a sash brush at Holkham's pages, but if you mean of the type on page:

www.allbackpaint.com/eng/verktyginfo.php?id=50374

...they are pretty good as well. I mainly use a round brush, but sometimes one of those gets very handy.

Looking through my pictures I found this: Left is a brush that's been used for a year or two. It still has plenty of life left in it after you untie the string a bit. A new brush is not worth much, it takes some time before it's "sharpened" to the right shape.

[paulchapman]

Hamiltons do some very nice round brushes with copper ferrules in their Perfection range - been using them for years. They give you very nice control. I agree, brushes seem to work better when you've been using them for a bit. After washing them, I always put an elastic band around the bristles while they are drying - helps to keep the shape nicely.

Cheers

Paul

[shrubby]

Jacob
you could look at the brushes from 'Atlantisart' and 'Flints' catalogues they have a good selection of Fitches and domed and pointed round sash. Both firms have all sorts of other usefull gubbins too.
The linseed paints look promising - do you lay it on like Gesso or is it similar to applying trad oil paint?
Matt

[mrgrimsdale]

Big window painted, more in progress. Oil paint fast and easy except for drying time. Scraping back dead simple - it's stanley knife scraper was the problem due to the thin blade and splayed ends. Much faster & easier with an old stub of a firmer chisel (sharp), using a piece of scraper blade (edges rounded so as not to scratch) as a guide held over the putty. Stubby chisel doesn't slide under the guide, as a stanley knife does. Sobvious really, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner.
Glazed, putty, painted on that gantry thing so that final movement into position could be done with no bending, just gentle shift to the vertical, hanging from block and tackle. Went really well but a bit nerve wracking having £2k worth of window swinging in the air!

[mrgrimsdale]

Still painting. Stuff dried nicely after 2 weeks away. Saw acres of flax in Normandy. I guess they are after bio fuel rather than linen and organic paint. What a waste.
Thought for the day
Holkham Paints say to touch up old paint with linseed oil before re-painting. So I did a few trial bits on the old windows, which haven't been painted for 30 years or more. Dried off nicely and ready to paint, on firm surface.
I'm beginning to think that the inadequacy and inferior quality of modern paints are the single main reason for the death of trad joinery. Once you stop using linseed the days are numbered for your door or window.

cheers
Jacob

[engineerone]

jacob for once i almost agree with you.

i think that like many modern things, the paint manufacturers
trying to save and make money use techniques which rather than attaching to the wood, rather wrap it, which is why for so many items you are supposed to leave the paint for more than a couple of hours to dry.

if for instance you use dulux trade paint, it is a bugger to get off your hands etc, and takes at least a day to dry, but gives you a
really deep finish.

however the amateurs and indeed many pros want the job finished quickly hence the use of "quick drying " paints, which coat the wood without joining to it, like linseed which kind of
soaks into the wood.

plainly with modern wood, which is not properly dry, and paint that kind of keeps the moisture in, you are bound to get joint and woodwork failure.

paul

[Telos]

Aug 7, 2008 18:09:27 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

...I'm beginning to think that the inadequacy and inferior quality of modern paints are the single main reason for the death of trad joinery. Once you stop using linseed the days are numbered for your door or window.

I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap.

If you use high street paint I might agree (if it's been applied by a monkey) but if you use industry quality paint the difference is night and day.

Spay primer using Sikkens Cetol WF and finish coat with Rubbol SB or the new XB and you wont need to look at it for 8 years.

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 8, 2008 8:53:07 GMT Telos said:

Aug 7, 2008 18:09:27 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

...I'm beginning to think that the inadequacy and inferior quality of modern paints are the single main reason for the death of trad joinery. Once you stop using linseed the days are numbered for your door or window.

I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap.

If you use high street paint I might agree (if it's been applied by a monkey) but if you use industry quality paint the difference is night and day.

Spay primer using Sikkens Cetol WF and finish coat with Rubbol SB or the new XB and you wont need to look at it for 8 years.

How are you going to spray on old existing work, in situ, including priming putty glazing beads etc? Or can it be brushed on to old linseed oil paint and poor surfaces?
Somehow I doubt it. I guess it would lift off just same as high street paints. But why bother anyway since linseed oil/paint is easy to apply and proven in performance?

cheers
Jacob
PS the point is that linseed oil/paint will take on very old neglected paintwork and dusty bare wood, whereas modern paints won't.
All the comeback I've ever had on my work has been down to failed paint; not done by me but by a range of professionals and amateurs.
I'm now experimenting with linseed oil on top of failed high street paint. Seems to take OK but best of all it takes to the bare wood where the modern paint has lifted off.

[Telos]

I thought your church-like window was a new build? In which case spray priming is simply the easiest option before installing.

If it's an existing window being renovated then brush prime with Onol, then finish with XD.

If you are saying your paint lifts from old and dusty surfaces then clean the damn thing and sand back to new! I don't know of any paint that will remain attached if the surfaces haven't been prepared properly.

I find it hard to believe that you are slagging modern paints because they wont stick to a dusty/greasy/old/un-prepared surface! I can understand why you (of all people!) might want to recreate linseed-oil based paints, but if your experience of modern paints is based on poorly prepared, old surfaces, using cheap paint applied by an idiot then your views are quite obviously jaundiced!

[mrgrimsdale]

Aug 8, 2008 14:36:04 GMT Telos said:

I thought your church-like window was a new build? In which case spray priming is simply the easiest option before installing.

Not if you don't have either spraying equipment or a suitable spray booth. I'm not a painter.

If it's an existing window being renovated then brush prime with Onol, then finish with XD.

What is Onol, XD?

If you are saying your paint lifts from old and dusty surfaces then clean the damn thing and sand back to new! I don't know of any paint that will remain attached if the surfaces haven't been prepared properly.

Thats what I'm saying - linseed oil will stick. Obviously you clean as much as possible but getting a neglected 150 yr old sash window back to new wood is impossible

I find it hard to believe that you are slagging modern paints because they wont stick to a dusty/greasy/old/un-prepared surface! I can understand why you (of all people!) might want to recreate linseed-oil based paints, but if your experience of modern paints is based on poorly prepared, old surfaces, using cheap paint applied by an idiot then your views are quite obviously jaundiced!

Most of the paint failure I'm talking about is on new work usually painted by professionals. All I do normally is alu primer, but not always that.
Seems to be a universal complaint that modern paint is sh*t, not just me.
That old paint is good is shown by the longevity of old joinery - usually never stripped but having layers of old paint accumulating (another problem).
The point of what I'm saying is that continued application of linseed oil/paint over many years seems to work. The first attempt at modern paint and you are f***d (3/4 years later).
I used to think it was down to the lead, but maybe its the oil. I'll let you know how my stuff survives in 5 or more years!
Then there are other benefits - easy to apply, no VOCs, washes off hands and brushes with soap and water, good coverage. Only obvious drawback is the slow drying. Not high gloss either but not bothered - don't want it to look like plastic.

cheers
Jacob

[mrgrimsdale]

sOK I've found Onol and Rubbol XD. Strewth the preparation you need! And it only has a life span similar to linseed oil. And I bet it's pricey. Will it go on top of old lead paint?
Not convinced at all - and it's new with no track record as yet. Couldn't risk it on my stuff.

cheers
Jacob

[Scrit]

Aug 7, 2008 18:09:27 GMT mrgrimsdale said:

I'm beginning to think that the inadequacy and inferior quality of modern paints are the single main reason for the death of trad joinery. Once you stop using linseed the days are numbered for your door or window.

Perhaps you're right, but the future doesn't seem that much brighter. One of the newest things I've dealt with is factory powder-coated and PVC-coated pre-glazed softwood glazing sets. These weigh a ton and are supposed to last 30+ years, but they're a b*tch to install because you can't take the glazing units out without destroying the finish over the beads (which begs the question about how you deal with a broken or misted DG unit). All you can do is remove the casements to get the weight down. These have been brought in ostensibly to reduce the maintainance required in the life cycle, but what's going to happen if the surface is breached? Surely the coating will trap water and accellerate decay? Of course the other joy is that they are a pig to fix - you need to install a cavity closer and fix to masonry using metal straps and hammer-in wedges because, of course, you can't get the glazing units out to use conventional screw of hammer fixings........

I think the death of trad joinery Jacob mentions, at least in older houses, is possibly more down to poor performance rather than just decorating. I have a long enough memory to remember loads of terrace houses in the 1960s which still possessed their original Victorian front doors and sash windows. They've almost all gone now as householders switched to gas and electric heating and grew tired of the draughts from loose, rattly sash windows. When affordable PVC DG units offered a chance to change all this it was hardly surprising that so many folk jumped at the chance to get rid of the timber ones, especially as the DG units offered better soundproofing. Personally I prefer trad sash windows but I see why so many people don't like them (or rather the maintainance and draughts which seem to accompany them)

Scrit

[engineerone]

but don't forget scrit, old houses needed draughts to allow for the proper burning of coal fires.

plainly the whole thing with central heating is that the air is not needed for combustion, so the circulation requirements were different.

as jacob says, it is now possible to build good air tight sash windows, and sometimes good doors too ;D

it is of course interesting that more modern houses suffer from damp or similar problems because they are so "air tight"

paul