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Post by jfc on Mar 17, 2008 22:17:10 GMT
Just about to start my next batch of windows and want to get my SM set up to do the tenons . The tenons are only 37mm long so i should be able to do them without worring about hitting the spindle . I just wondered what tooling others use to do this as i already have some groovers and rebate blocks .
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Post by Scrit on Mar 17, 2008 22:30:54 GMT
37mm? You should be able to get something like a 130mm diameter cutter on your spindle so why not get two TCT-RT discs mounted on a top hat? I've recently been using just such a combination with a 40mm bore tooling set on a 1-1/4in bore top hat - Jason's set up has a 1in/25.4mm spindle top piece and so could mount standard 30mm or 1-1/4in bore on a 25.4mm bore top hat with standard (ex-stock) spacer shims (available from Scott & sargent, and if anyone wants a top hat set I have a local engineering firm who'll make you one, complete with about 12 different shims from 2mm to 20mm thick and a top locking ring for about £85). That way the entire cutter set goes on and comes off in one piece. Replaceable tip tooling means that the cutting diameter stays constant, tooling isn't "off-lined" because it has to be sent out for grinding and I genuinely believe that disposable tip tooling is sharper that the brazed variety (maybe someone like CuttingSolutions could comment on that). One possibility might be to match an ally tenoning block with a TCT-RT spurred groover, always assuming your machine has enough power to spin up/brake such a combination
Scrit
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Post by jfc on Mar 17, 2008 22:43:00 GMT
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Post by Scrit on Mar 18, 2008 13:59:08 GMT
With a boss diameter of 60mm and a cutter projection of 30mm you'd be able to straight tenon up to approx. 60mm:
block diameter + 2 * projection - boss diameter /2
= 125 + 2 x 30 - 60 / 2
= 125 / 2
= 62.5
However, I don't think your machine can accommodate a 185mm diameter cutter set within the existing horseshoe fence/guard set-up. I thought that the Bursgreen RS/Wadkin BRS was limited to somewhere around 145mm diameter, so looks like you'lll need another Scrit guard ;D
Scrit
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Post by jfc on Mar 18, 2008 14:16:49 GMT
Ive got 195mm tight but i was planning on having to make a new Scrit gaurd if i needed it . Scrit gaurd ;D we gotta get that into wikipedia .
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Post by cuttingsolutions on Mar 18, 2008 18:41:15 GMT
Scrit In reply to the disposable knife (TOK/HW) and Brazed (TCT/HM) tip cutters. The carbide grade for the TOK knives is usually much harder than the brazed tooling and in fact cannot be brazed to a base metal...in most cases.... On different applications the TOK tools will out perform the TCT tools because the edge will last longer. Some soft woods would require a "softer" garde of carbide which might still be available in TOK design. And you are perfectly correct about constant dimensions. Also consider that if you have an adjustable grooving cutterhead this can sometimes be seperated, turned over and use for top and bottom tenons. Some may not allow the width of tenon required according to the height of any boss in the middle of the head. You can see what I mean if you look at the 530 cutterhead here: www.frezite.pt/fotos/familias/cap1_1196852560.pdfDave |
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Post by cuttingsolutions on Mar 18, 2008 18:50:22 GMT
Jason yep looks like the new style Whitehill tooling.  Versatile tools. Dave |
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Post by cuttingsolutions on Mar 18, 2008 18:56:36 GMT
Scrit
I just looked again at your calculation which gives the correct answer but seems....well complex...
But i suppose using the Whitehill knives with a big projection....
Anyway. I would recommend an allowance from the max depth and usually suggest 15%....you dont want to get too close to the spindle or collar/sleeve with spacers
so 62.5 -15% = 53.xxxx
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Post by Scrit on Mar 18, 2008 20:13:29 GMT
Scrit I just looked again at your calculation which gives the correct answer but seems....well complex... But i suppose using the Whitehill knives with a big projection.... Really? Since when is cutter diameter + 2 * standard cutter projection (giving the maximum diameter of the block) difficult to understand? And then if you want to know the maximum depth of cut achieveable by any spindle tool set-up it's all the same calculation, i.e. overall diameter of tool less centre boss size all divided by two...... From personal experience one of the problems to overcome with a small spindle moulder like the RS/BRS is that that machine has a horseshoe fence which is darned tight, I thought it was pushing the limit at 150mm Jason, and ideally you want to be 5 to 10mm under that. If that were the case then it would allow just 10mm of cutter projection (125 + 2 *10 = 145), and 10mm projection may or may not be enough to accommodate the scribed mouldings that Jason and I were discussing on the phone this morning. And I was trying to achieve a result from ex-stock, off the shelf tooling (agreed not always the best solution but almost always the cheapest and quickest). Of course you could always go to an undercut cutter which cuts on both the end and bottom/top face, akin to those used in the Whitehill (and other) panel raising blocks, but then you are into special grinds and potentially short tool life (limited number of grindings and I can see problems doing scribes that way). But if as Jason says he can get 185mm in there then that allows him to build a tooling set-up with off-the shelf tools and cutters. That is, of course is assuming that the problem isn't just overcome by removing the fence assembly and fitting a larger home-made/fabricated tenoning guard. BTW CS I take your point about an allowance - I've always used 5 to 10mm over the size of the boss rather than a percentage (i.e. 125 + [2 * 30] - [60+10] / 2, answer 57.5mm) - but in this case the requirement was to achieve a 37mm long tenon and my calculation was designed to show that to be achieveable using standard, off-the shelf tooling. Also consider that if you have an adjustable grooving cutterhead this can sometimes be seperated, turned over and use for top and bottom tenons. Some may not allow the width of tenon required according to the height of any boss in the middle of the head. I've recently been using a set-up just like that, a 3-wing Garniga split groover reversed and mou8ntedf face to face on a single boss, although I'm not 100% sure about how legal the tooling then is..... Scrit |
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Post by Scrit on Mar 18, 2008 20:15:02 GMT
Scrit gaurd ;D we gotta get that into wikipedia . You've gotta learn to use the spell checker first, I'd say  ;D |
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Post by cuttingsolutions on Mar 18, 2008 20:50:22 GMT
Scrit My apologies on the calculation. I don't usually deal with Whitehill type tooling so the knife projection is not often a calculation i need to consider....though obviously very relevant. And I only scan read that part of your reply  many of the tools i supply don't have knives with projection...TOK heads tailor made to the individual profile....I appreciate thats not ideal for lower volume users. Ideally and to put the least strain on tools and machines I don't think you should use any more than 60% of the available depth....but everyone has to make best use of whats available. Those cutterheads are all standard from Whitehill and other similar type tools, but the knives/deflectors all have to be produced and i believe some are quoting very long 6-8 weeks delivery time. I must look at designing a suitable tool using the standard Euro knives and deflectors and offering a shorter delivery time on specially profiled knives. I need to check the regulations "again" on running the heads face to face but the link i gave showed MAN which "should" make them ok. |
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Post by Scrit on Mar 18, 2008 21:09:57 GMT
Those cutterheads are all standard from Whitehill and other similar type tools, but the knives/deflectors all have to be produced and i believe some are quoting very long 6-8 weeks delivery time. In fact my local grinder carries the blanks in stock and has the necessary equiment to produce profiles in about 3 days - although he admits to not buying in blanks from Whitehill. I must look at designing a suitable tool using the standard Euro knives and deflectors and offering a shorter delivery time on specially profiled knives. Isn't the problem there that the projection is limited by the design? Off the top of my head isn't the max. projection around 20mm on a 100mm Euro safety block? Whitehill and others certainly make ex-stock T&G sets in 4 - 6 - 8mm, but they're really only suitable for kitchen (i.e. cabinet) doors I need to check the regulations "again" on running the heads face to face but the link i gave showed MAN which "should" make them ok. I wondered whether or not the three big gaps in the blocks was the problem. I ran it, it was noisy (boy, then some), but it did cut well, and because ut was always being used with a tenoning carraige and work clamp my digits were nowhere near those spinning bits of metal Scrit |
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Post by jfc on Mar 18, 2008 21:14:26 GMT
Hang on  Noisy , as in scarey Just how many passes do i need to make to do a tenon  |
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Post by Scrit on Mar 18, 2008 22:45:58 GMT
Hang on Noisy , as in scarey Just how many passes do i need to make to do a tenon One |
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Post by dexteria on Mar 18, 2008 22:54:20 GMT
I used this set up before I got a tenoner. As said before the downside is that you have to get the profile cutters matched to the straight tenon disk and the size of rebate required. Mark   |
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Post by jfc on Mar 19, 2008 14:03:46 GMT
The set on the left is what i am going for .
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Post by dom on Mar 19, 2008 19:27:45 GMT
Hang on Noisy , as in scarey Just how many passes do i need to make to do a tenon If she doesn't smile on the first pass you're never gonna do a tenon mate |
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cadas
Full Member
Posts: 107
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Post by cadas on Mar 19, 2008 20:17:57 GMT
Ive started using disks made by Ravageur www.bordet.fr/pages/prod.php?p_id=810Massive range of sizes, I have two of the 320mm disks that take four cutters as well as a load of smaller sizes down to 140mm. The cutters are also available in different projections to give all the options I need |
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Post by jfc on Mar 19, 2008 20:27:46 GMT
Ahhhhhhhh thats good  |
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Post by pitbull on Mar 19, 2008 21:19:38 GMT
Ahhhhhhhh thats good oui oui...... oo la la |
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cadas
Full Member
Posts: 107
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Post by cadas on Mar 20, 2008 5:23:42 GMT
I thought you only looked at pictures ;D ;D This is the first link I found, the disk it shows are the slighly diy range, I will post piccys of some of mine later. For those non french readers among us made of steel, 30m bore, external cut governed by the diametre of the disk. Cutters placed in slot and held by washer and screw. Cutters remain perfectly centred and at a constant diamtre even after sharpening Anyone need any other french piccys translating ;D |
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Post by jfc on Mar 20, 2008 8:11:38 GMT
I have a few but i will need to get the mags from under my bed and scan them ;D
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Post by jfc on Mar 31, 2008 21:50:26 GMT
Well my tooling arrived today from whitehill ... that was quick eh Already cut the tenons and made the windows Errrrrrr , big aint they still that doesnt bother me ............  |
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cadas
Full Member
Posts: 107
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Post by cadas on Apr 1, 2008 19:29:25 GMT
see.....get right tooling and it all becomes quicker.....feel the forks
read the above in a yoda voice...............works much better
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Post by jfc on Apr 1, 2008 19:38:30 GMT
No , i made the windows in the time it took them to send the flippin cutters  I'm not feeling the force , i'm feeling my backside tweaking |
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;D 
Noisy , as in scarey 
I'm not feeling the force , i'm feeling my backside tweaking